Those pesky death certificates

It seems that even doctors who have no problem with abortion see the need for changes to the current Canadian laws (via this excellent, comprehensive article by Tristan Hopper in today’s National Post- Live-birth abortions a perilous grey zone in Canada’s criminal code):

…Requiring medical staff to examine a fetus for vital signs — even when medical intervention could not possibly ensure its survival — is the bizarre consequence of the fact that, ungoverned by a legal framework for abortions, Canadian fetuses exist in a legal no-man’s-land between birth and death.

In the U.K., where abortions are regulated by the 1967 Abortion Act, any heartbeat of a fetus would be irrelevant, as the procedure would be noted as a pregnancy termination regardless.

“This is a quirk of Canadian law … all of us would like to see changes to the law that would not necessitate these live birth and death certificates, but until that happens we’re stuck with that number,” said Dr. Black.

How utterly inconvenient. Surely the NDP could take up this noble cause.

*   *   *   *

Related

‘Homicide’ or not, abortion is a subject that too few Canadian politicians are willing to tackleJonathan Kay, National Post:

The fact is that Canada is the only nation in the Western world without any abortion law.

Shhhhh!!! You can’t say that Jonathan! The truth is discriminatory against women.

*   *   *   *

Noteworthy links

Abortion Myths (Especially Myth #9)

Canadian Physicians for Life

United for Life:

Dr. Will Johnston, president of Canadian Physicians for Life, in a statement emailed to LifeSiteNews last week pointed out the hypocrisy of the Canadian Medical Association: “CMA delegates worry about children not exercising enough or not wearing bicycle helmets, while over one hundred thousand children go missing from our playgrounds every year because they were killed by abortion.”

Jonathan Kay: Some questions for Carolyn Bennett (and my other pro-choice critics) – Post

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74 Responses to Those pesky death certificates

  1. Bubba Brown says:

    This Jo is a heart rending issue, either you can see the inhumanity or you think it is a “woman’s Right”
    Which of course trumps all reason and gives no mercy or quarter to the innocent.
    Reading the comments was eye opening to say the least.
    John 11:35.
    To quote Ronnie Reagan “Everyone in favor of abortion has already been born”
    What is happening would cause nation wide out rage if it was a puppy or in Europe a baby seal.
    It takes great courage as a politician in this Country to raise this subject.
    The Media and certain Liberal and NDP-Q politicians that worked themselves into a knicker staining frenzy over allegations of “possible” abuse of Afghan Taliban prisoners they will be all over this, no abuse here, just an unwanted, inconvenient “fetus”
    The Corrupt Media who find no fault in a politician who is found naked in a sleazy tug and rub.
    Or who simply keep showing the baby pictures of a man who took the life of another, who was trying to assist the wounded.
    That shows no curiosity over prominent politicians that refuse to pay their campaign bills.
    Or in a small town Mayor who is on a campaign of mass deception and whose corpulence puts her so called “hunger strike” while staying at a four star hotel and giving press conferences in a tee pee laughable to say the least.
    This same Media is all over Rob Ford now it’s a 4% too much spent on his campaign.
    They can’t win at the polls so law fare is all they have “left” (pun intended)
    The corrupt media is going to love this.
    We do need some rule of law in this Canada, we do need to speak for the innocent that have no voice.
    It’s not going to be easy, but then the right thing to do is never easy.
    Just some thoughts from an old guy who has been a son, a father, a husband, a grandfather.
    I challenge anyone with a conscience to look around their next family gathering and pick the ones that should not be there or could not be there because someone found them inconvenient.
    What’s that you say?
    Can’t pick one ?
    Heck, look in the mirror, you’ll do.

  2. Liz J says:

    Anything around the abortion issue will remain a political football.It was never an “issue” during Liberal reign because they refused to get into it and were never pressed by media to discuss it. Not so our PM, it’s among favourite first questions from media during election campaigns for Conservatives.

    Our PM has taken the same tack, he refuses to get caught up in a trap the opposition and media would like to snare him in so he’s sticking to his guns no matter who among his caucus tries to start something.

    We do some law, there ought to be a law, but that will take far more political intestinal fortitude than we’ve seen or are likely to see in the present climate. Perhaps if the politicians were to witness some procedures they’d have enough nightmares to take action.

  3. Patsplace says:

    Different folks than those that I hang around with to do this kind of work.

  4. fh says:

    All Canadians need information with information comes the sanity to make informed statements
    Abortion is a money making industry
    we Canadians protect life
    we Canadians protest the seal pup hunt
    we Canadians are against the death penalty
    we Canadians are split when we are asked about Abortion
    We Canadians are for protecting all Canadians rights
    Some Canadians do not want to offer their support to our most important new generation of Canadians our unborn HUMAN babies
    I do not support the right to choose death for our Canadian babies
    I do support that every Canadian be given all ALL the information on Abortion Clinics
    I do support holding meetings to educate all Canadians if you still support the killing of babies the law will not NOT be written
    please stop blaming Prime Minister Harper he was elected on a PROMISE not to change the Abortion laws

  5. Bec says:

    These bleeding heart ‘progressives’ get more outraged over puppies and kittens left in ditches to die than the same thing happening to a human infant.

    I wonder if some spectacular, gifted people who were spared by their Mothers, were to step up and prove that THEY were NOT a burden to society, might make some the chilled hearts beat and think differently?

    Consistency in logic doesn’t seem to be one of their strong points. Hypocrisy does.

  6. Bubba Brown says:

    As Conservatives our voices were not heard or we were disparaged as being knuckle draggers.
    We fought hard to get here over many years.
    To hear the son of the son of a trust fund baby, mewl that the PM must be from Quebec.
    No one is blaming our PM for anything.
    He promised he would not bring this up.

    • Joanne says:

      No one is blaming our PM for anything.
      He promised he would not bring this up.

      Exactly. That doesn’t stop backbenchers from having an opinion though; or at least it shouldn’t.

  7. fh says:

    Excuse me “no one is blaming our PM for anything”
    I guess I get a different QP
    I must also listen and read a foreign MSM
    excuse me

  8. fh says:

    Excuse me “no one is blaming our PM”
    Sun news Robson is furious about our PM’s cat Stanley and he states the PM is banal for Tweeting his (PM)’s day really John Robson REALLY

  9. bettie says:

    When my mother-in-law was expecting her youngest child, she had very bad arthritis… hands contorted, could hardly walk, etc. Soooo, the Dr. advised an abortion. She said, “No, I want this baby.” This ‘baby’ is a successful medical doctor… opposed to abortion. Won’t do it, and won’t refer to those who would.

  10. fh says:

    This is the news about Abortion in P.E.I
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada

  11. fh says:

    For information on Birth Control this is an excellent site
    Prevention of unwanted pregnancy is one issue which needs discussion
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraception

    • Joanne says:

      I’m having an interesting twitter exchange with someone on the ‘other side’. According to her, doctors don’t perform abortions past viability except in special circumstances.

      The problem is that the data can’t really be verified so how do we really know what’s going on?

      • fh says:

        Jo you have to work for an abortion Doctor to get the real story
        I wish everyone could spend a day in the office of an abortion Doctor ( I spent a week worst week of my life I had no idea ) a very different attitude from my own Family Practice
        Abortion is a money making industry
        It is used as birth control by married couples who do not want children
        that is their choice but the fetus is innocent They need to consider sterilization not killing an innocent fetus

  12. fh says:

    Sorry for posting so much I worry that our society is made poorer because of our failure to address this important blot on our pages in history
    Being remembered for sacrificing our babies NOT something for any Canadian to take much pride in.

  13. Mary T says:

    No wonder we have such a violent society. When on things that over a million women have killed their babies, and many of the fathers agreed with it.
    My step mother was pregnant when she got polio, and would not have an abortion. She spent most of her pregnancy in an iron lung. Step brother lived a long and useful life, as did she.

  14. Mary T says:

    oops, thinks, not things. Got a wordpress error when posting.

  15. Jeffery says:

    I commend the PM Harper for his position on abortion. The PM respects women’s rights in Canada which has set a standard for women’s right all over the world. Women in Canada are people not property or objects. In Canada, a women has the RIGHT to choose a medical service that is provided by a medical professional. PM Harper respects this.

    • Joanne says:

      What about a woman’s right to choose the gender of her child? It’s not legal to do so via IVF but she can legally choose to abort her fetus if it’s an unwanted gender.

  16. Bubba Brown says:

    Really, really OT
    “PM Harper has breakfast with his cat”, knicker staining outrage by marginally intellegent lifeform posing as Journalist.
    Only in Canada
    Meanwhile “Liberal Leadership Candidates” (now that is an oxymoron) are interupped by “idle some more” protestors.
    There was two (2) idelers, one beating a drum and the other yelling something about “when are we going to be first”
    I knew that whole first nations thing was a big mistake.
    Gee all they really had to do was set up a tee pee in the lobby and the Liberal hopefuls would have lined up to hold a feather and look really, really concerned.
    You know there is just no interest or excitment when the leadership hopefuls outnumber the protestors like 3 to 1
    Now that is banal
    After all that groveling at our lady of fish soup’s feet.
    Pity.
    Me, I would go with the cat story, people love animals.
    Stanley looks kinda cute.
    Only In Canada.
    http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/Idle-No-More-activists-make-surprise-appearance-at-Liberal-debate-189510791.html?NewsWatchCanada.ca

  17. Liz J says:

    Just for balance, did anyone watch the interviews of all the LPC leadership hopefuls?

    Some have said it was a real snooze but then what could be expected when the winner is already known?

  18. Mark McCourt says:

    Twenty-five years ago, the Supreme Court struck down Canada’s abortion law in the Morgentaler decision. However, far from decreeing that abortion on demand is an inalienable Charter right, the Court ruled that Parliament is constitutionally able to enact a procedurally fair criminal law that bans elective, non-therapeutic abortions procured for socio-economic reasons or as a means of birth control, but allows therapeutic abortions medically necessary to preserve maternal physical or psychiatric health. The Court confirmed that saving unborn human beings from induced abortion is a valid legislative objective — that society has a compelling interest in protecting fetal life.

    Abortion is not a trivial issue; rather, it is a matter of life and death. Sir William Liley, a pioneer in prenatal medicine, once described an aborted eight week old human fetus: “There are all of the components of a baby still but in a macabre jigsaw puzzle, and in the debris in the suction bottle one can recognize one pigmented eye, a fragment of brain to the left. One can find all four limbs dismantled, a rib cage, an eviscerated torso, the abdominal viscera have all become detached and are just a slurry, and a short segment of cord.”

    Polls consistently show that most Canadians favor restrictions on abortion. To support Canada’s unrestricted abortion on demand status quo would be disappointingly illiberal in this day and age, when concern for the value of fetal life, like increased concern for the rights of minorities, represents an admirable evolution of our society’s standards.

    Over 20 years ago, esteemed human rights lawyer (then-Liberal MP) David Kilgour and I drafted a bill to recriminalize abortion except in cases of sexual assault, gross fetal abnormality, or serious threat to maternal health. Balancing society’s compelling interest in the lives of unborn children with pregnant women’s autonomy rights, the proposed bill offered compromise between an outright abortion ban and unrestricted abortion on demand. The latter of those extremes has represented the status quo in Canada for a quarter of a century.

    An attempt by the last Conservative majority government to pass a criminal abortion law was blocked by our unelected, unaccountable Senate in 1991. Since then, unrestricted abortion in Canada has resulted in the deaths of over two million unborn children.

    Four months ago, a courageous private member’s motion to reconsider the legal status of the fetus earned the support of a majority of Conservative MPs. Prime Minister Harper should listen to his caucus (and to the majority of Canadians on this issue) and have his pro-life Justice Minister introduce a government bill to recriminalize non-therapeutic, medically unnecessary, elective abortions. More likely, however, we will have to wait for Jason Kenney to assume Mr. Harper’s job before this abhorrent vacuity in federal law is properly addressed.

    And MPs Vellacott and Benoit (the two MPs who signed that letter to the RCMP last month) are right, Stats Canada seems to note evidence of a number of apparent homicides (as defined by existing Criminal Code provisions) that obviously should be investigated by police: http://www.consciencelaws.org/repression/repression002.aspx

    • Joanne says:

      Thanks so much for your comment. I’ll probably have lots of questions. Want to think about this.

    • fh says:

      I was not able to read the full article Mark McCourt linked to
      I will be ill thinking about what I was able to read for many days
      Canadians need to have a full discussion of Abortion NOW
      ndpq please stop screeching the same old message step into the 21st century
      please PLEASE be willing to stop screeching just long enough to see the facts not your imaginary beliefs
      the facts are in front of everyone please open your eyes PLEASE

      • Joanne says:

        I honestly don’t know how anyone in the medical field could perform an abortion if the woman’s health was not at risk. They must just shut it all out somehow.

    • Joanne says:

      I’ve thought this over and there is so much here to discuss but to play the devil’s advocate I’d put forward that the extremists on the pro-choice side say that Canada doesn’t need any law to govern abortion because the doctors won’t do it over a certain gestational age (usually viability). This is the CMA link that I was given as proof.

      The fact that present-day data is difficult to find doesn’t help. Governments seem to want to bury it.

      If you have any counter-arguments please feel free to present them here. Thanks Mark.

  19. fh says:

    try to watch this factual film on Abortion
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5ILndK3aDg

    • fh says:

      this film “Eclipse of reason “is my counter argument I would like to ask that all members of our Canadian Parliament be asked to see this film

      • Liz J says:

        Sorry, can’t watch it.
        As for members of parliament watching it, good idea since they’re the ones who have the power to get laws enacted but good luck with that happening.

        Perhaps if they did watch it they’d go home and hug their kids.

  20. Pingback: If a baby born alive, letting it die not part of the “abortion” — it’s manslaughter! | Crux of the Matter

  21. fh says:

    anyone aware of this site for voting and asking questions
    http://faqmp.ichannel.ca/?thanks=true

  22. Bec says:

    Brilliant medical minds have achieved so much and yet for this medical procedure, their achievements have become more disgusting and diabolical.

    Knowing how they can save the lives of early births, I can’t wrap my head around what sort of medical professional it takes to watch the termination of an unwanted ‘early birth’.

    This does need to be debated and Canadians do need to wake up and get engaged. There must be boundaries.

  23. Liz J says:

    OT:
    Anyone paying any attention to the farce called the LPC leadership?

    Trudeau has raised so much money he can’t be caught, no one comes close. Wonder how many non Liberals donated a tenner to join the party and “support” Junior PET? He sure will look mighty juvenile up against PM Harper but Mulcair may be concerned for his chances of holding onto his seats in PQ land.

    Gonna be fun to watch the Liberals make another big mistake going for the flash and dash candidate over substance or at least maturity.

  24. Joanne says:

    Another great column by Jonathan Kay posted in the update.

    • Liz J says:

      Getting an answer from DOCTOR Carolyn Bennett to any question is guaranteed to leave one scratching their head.
      If she’s an example of the depth of the LPC they have more than leadership to worry about.

  25. fh says:

    NDP are big on Prevention on all the discussions little to no NO word about responsibility and prevention of the pregnancy
    there is a wide belief that the Abortion is a woman’s problem and yet Married couples avail themselves of Abortion on demand as a method of Birth Control at the expense of the public PURSE
    we need statistics on all Abortions

  26. fh says:

    Think of the budgets that could be balanced if public money was not used for abortions.
    Pregnancy is not a disease and with prevention if you do not want a baby you can prevent pregnancy you can permanently prevent pregnancy by an operation available to both men and women
    I find it unpalatable when some women have three or more abortions
    this needs to be investigated and we need an answer to WHY?

  27. ed says:

    ““CMA delegates worry about children not exercising enough or not wearing bicycle helmets, while over one hundred thousand children go missing from our playgrounds every year because they were killed by abortion.”

    What’s that saying — “you can judge a civilization by how well it treats the weakest of its members.” Maybe there are spiritual laws that bring about negative results (punishment) when society chooses the wrong pathways??

  28. ed says:

    fh says:
    February 2, 2013 at 5:02 pm

    “Prevention of unwanted pregnancy is one issue which needs discussion.”

    I agree. If there is one area that would make a difference this is it. Governments should do all they can to promote prevention. It should be a major goal.

  29. ed says:

    Joanne says:
    February 2, 2013 at 5:54 pm

    ” According to her, doctors don’t perform abortions past viability except in special circumstances.”

    From what I have read, viability is the ability of a premature baby to survive outside the womb. To determine life on the basis of our ability to keep a premature baby alive is wrong. Viability is a measurement of the technology not that of the baby itself.

  30. ed says:

    Very good article by Jonathan Kay. As for Liberal MP Carolyn Bennett:

    “No physician in Canada can terminate a pregnancy over 24 weeks without serious indications: the life of the mother at risk, or the fetus has very serious malformations.”

    Typical Liberal BS: how does she know this? She speaks for the whole country and every hospital in it? And she has the gall to accuse the reporter of misrepresenting the facts!! As for the life of the mother being at risk, this has been greatly exaggerated.

    Again, from what I have researched: in the sixties, no scientist really questioned that human life began at conception. In the seventies, many have attempted to justify what they see as a social need for abortion by claiming what is killed is not yet human life. To measure human life by social standards or by physical or mental perfection is to open the door to infanticide and euthanasia for those who do not measure up to these standards. Guess what, Quebec has gone there with euthanasia. Price tags on human beings??

    • Joanne says:

      Very passionate arguments Ed.

      “As for the life of the mother being at risk, this has been greatly exaggerated.”

      Indeed. I suspect that many abortions are done for the ‘mental health’ of the woman – whether it relates to unwanted gender of the fetus, perceived ‘handicap’ (like cleft palate), financial concerns, inconvenient timing, or just that she doesn’t want to be pregnant.

      Personally I think the State (taxpayers) should provide birth control instead of routine abortions.

  31. fh says:

    needed conservative voters NDP winning
    http://faqmp.ichannel.ca/?thanks=true
    please vote

  32. Joe says:

    Everytime a conservative says the word “abortion” 10 votes leave for the Liberals and the NDP. As a conservative I like the present policy of no policy. I believe it is totally a matter for the mother to decide. It is for her and her alone. Even a husband should have no say. This is the issue that causes conservative women to switch their votes.

    Has nobody noticed how badly American Republicans did with the womans’ vote?

  33. Jen says:

    Kenney’s Bill
    C-43:- Faster Removal of Criminals Act

    were voted against by the LIBERALS, NDP, BLOC and Greens. Yet these three parties are concern for canada’s security-WHAT A JOKE.

    Nothing surprising. the criminals must be ecstatic.

  34. ed says:

    Joanne says:
    February 5, 2013 at 8:32 am

    “Indeed. I suspect that many abortions are done for the ‘mental health’ of the woman – whether it relates to unwanted gender of the fetus, perceived ‘handicap’ (like cleft palate), financial concerns, inconvenient timing, or just that she doesn’t want to be pregnant.”

    Joanne, I fully agree. What continues to amaze me is how society turns a blind eye on this life and death matter, especially after all these years when the truth is self-evident. Society, IMO, has been and continues to pay a very high price for its inaction.

  35. ed says:

    “As for the politicians, yes, where are the leaders today? Look at the major issues in this country that politicians will not touch with a 10 foot pole.”

    Well, here’s another one:

    “It is obvious that we cannot win in the Courts, where Freedom is what the Judges have decided Freedom should be. But, WE CAN WIN IN THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION, where Freedom MUST be more than just a suggestion.

    Whether you’re a Canadian or an American . . . you have a duty to yourself and to your country to get into the fight. Because, if you accept that your Freedoms should be open to the interpretation of the government and Courts, then you don’t deserve to enjoy the FREEDOMS other people bled and died for you to have.”

    “If ONE FREEDOM is under attack . . . all of our FREEDOMS are under attack, and I will not stand silent or passive. To the LEFT, the RIGHTS of Government over the RIGHTS of the INDIVIDUAL have long been an International Conspiracy.”

    http://www.galganov.com/editorials/2-6-2013/freedom-isn/250000-reasons-not-to-fight-for-freedom–one-reason-for/

    • Liz J says:

      Speaking of leaders, can anyone even imagine this country entrusted to Junior Trudeau?
      Where would his airy fairy ideas take this country? Given the shell the LPC has become ,thanks in no small part to Chretien and Martin, with no strength to draw from behind the curtains, we’d be a global laughing stock.

      People like Carolyn Bennett, Hedy Fry offering advice?

      John McCallum who didn’t know what kind of car he was driving for handling economic affairs?

      Marc Garneau for Space travel?

      If the Liberals had a clue they’d choose a caretaker leader and rebuild their party instead of flash and dash with no substance due to inexperience. Sadly it appears their desperation for power has befuddled their minds to the point of doing a threepeat on the leadership front.

      • Martin says:

        They have had 6 leaders in the last decade and I may have missed a few. Some of these were care takers like Bill Graham and Bob Rae, plenty of opportunity to knuckle down and present some policy options which could attract some support. Instead they pursue the easy route, that the decimation in the last 4 outings is just an aberration and with a dynamic leader they will be back in power in no time. I cannot fathom why insiders allow the coronation of Jr, but not for me to say.
        Some thoughtful conservatives do not want to see the party totally destroyed, a viable opposition force is needed in a healthy democracy. Plus a combined Lib/NDP party would be a dangerous opponent and a definite concern once they formed a government.

  36. Bec says:

    Here is the historical debate in a nutshell today with Charles Adler. He challenges today’s society VS Then…..a journalist icon writing a piece in the late 60’s where not a peep was heard from anyone.
    Would there be a ‘peep’ now? Yes, it would be outrage, there would be people fired, sued, challenged by the human rights idiots but……NO ONE would utter a peep in defense and THAT is the point of what the LEFT have accomplished and what the balanced ones should face as a challenge.

    http://charlesadler.com/

  37. ed says:

    Liz J says:
    February 7, 2013 at 8:49 am

    Liz J, excellent post!!

    And, as for this: “Speaking of leaders, can anyone even imagine this country entrusted to Junior Trudeau?”

    Aaagh, I’m getting sick.

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