On the front page of today’s National Post, Charles Lewis gives the impression that MP Stephen Woodworth’s proposal to have a discussion about the human rights of the unborn (or subhuman) in likely going nowhere – The Debate that Isn’t.
However I would like to submit that all roads here don’t necessarily lead to the criminalization of abortion. Perhaps we could still examine the way it is carried out in light of new scientific information and procedures.
Two relevant areas that spring to mind are those of fetal pain and ‘selective reduction’ (which has got to be the ultimate euphemism).
The former is important in terms of the developmental age of the unborn and whether or not an anesthetic should be administered.
The latter is perhaps more a question of ethics in an age of consumerism where IVF can be used to procure a pregnancy but the woman decides that she can’t handle all the babies that she is carrying for either emotional or financial reasons. In that case, who gets to decide which unborn child is more worthy of life? Should the woman even be implanted with more than one embryo at a time if she is unwilling to carry more than a ‘singleton’?
These are reasonable questions to ask.
Essex Conservative MP Jeff Watson suggests that we might be able to discuss the rights of the unborn and their humanity in a simple ‘take-note’ debate which would not involve any voting.
If our elected officials cannot even discuss matters like this then our system has some very serious and fundamental flaws.
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Related
In-vitro fertilization linked to rare genetic disorders – NP [H/T]
‘Deselecting’ our children – Margaret Somerville (Globe) [H/T]:
In deciding about the ethics of prenatal screening, we should recall that, for all of us, “the well are only the undiagnosed sick.”
And this one goes back to 2008 – Canada and Late Term Abortions. Dr. Somerville is quoted about the lack of reliable statistics:
“…We all need to know these facts. The reason we do not, is that some years ago, instructions were given to Statistics Canada not to request from hospitals and clinics reporting, as required, on the number of abortions, the gestational age at which abortion occurred. My understanding is that this was a politically motivated instruction.”
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(Thanks to Blazing Cat Fur for posting this video)
This one’s worth checking out: Forbidden Questions With Stephen Woodworth – Bad Company (Patrick Ross)
BROACHING ABORTION – Stephen Woodworth with Brian Lilley on SNN
This is not an easy subject, I don’t suppose it ever will be.
A short while ago Jean Chretain chimed in with his fear of Abortion being outlawed and the death penalty brought back
The shawinagin strangler has no scense of irony whatsoever.
For what it’s worth here is a story of a crime committed nearly 78 years ago, and the rest of the story.
It put a tear in this old guy’s eye, how little we know of life and the paths we choose, where they can lead.
Good can come, grace must be accepted, hearts must want to change.
http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/weird/Woman-100-Reunited-With-Daughter-After-77-Years-136583773.html
Whoops I clicked on an “abridged” article of that story here is the full version.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2081442/Minka-Disbrow-celebrates-100th-birthday-daughter-gave-adoption.html
What a great story! Thanks Bubba.
Thanks for that Bubba, great story indeed.
How nice to see someone reach the age of 100 years and still have mobility and mind in tact!
Funny how Woodworth’s article doesn’t allow debate in the form of comments!
Wonderful story Bubba.
makes me wonder how many Einsteins we have lost because we are unwilling to discuss all the facts about pregnancy and women’s rights
I hope that this discussion can be carried out by ADULTS and that statistics can be revealed and perhaps some changes can be suggested to improve the health of women and children and the unborn child
we cannot look back for answers but must learn from the past decisions and move ahead into the 21st century
we need to support women as MANY are forced to have ABORTIONS surely no woman should feel happy about a woman being forced to have an abortion
the choice abortion is not always the choice of the pregnant woman
fh
When it comes to abortion it’s hard to imagine we’ve evolved this far yet something this vital is ignored among the people in politics who make and change laws.
We all know how the socialists and the Leftist bent media love to ask Conservatives what their view on abortion is to use it as tool against them should they say they oppose it. It’s never asked of the Libs or Dippers.
Fact is this issue is not about political ideology or religion, it’s about setting down strict guidelines with laws for the medical profession to follow which can only come from having serious debate coupled with graphics to educate those who debate and ultimately make the laws.
The debate seems to surfacing. Even Evan is doing a survey:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/inside-politics-blog/2012/01/question-of-the-day-504.html
I am surprised by the results.
PMSH declared that he will not open the debate, but individual MP’s are not afraid to bring this to the forefront. This will be interesting.
Re: Dr Somerville statement
‘…Statistics Canada was responsible for data collection from late 1969, when the survey began, until the end of the 1994 data year. As of the 1995 data year, the Canadian Institute for Health Information assumed this responsibility….’
”..In January 1988, the Supreme Court of Canada struck down the 1969 abortion law which had contained a clause requiring the collection of data on all induced abortions performed in Canada.
With the absence of any legal requirement for reporting, some respondents began to submit only counts of abortions rather than detailed records on each abortion….
There are few instances of complete non-response.
The response rate for hospitals is 100%. However, recently, there have been occasions when clinics did not report…”
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/cgi-bin/imdb/p2SV.pl?Function=getSurvey&SDDS=3209&lang=en&db=imdb&adm=8&dis=2
Thanks for that link Wilson.
Welcome Joanne. Came across this when looking for those reliable accurate stats.
Here are the stats from the CIHI, released Oct/11 for 2009.
There are a lot of private clinics not reporting, as you scroll thru. Gestational stats on page 6.
http://www.cihi.ca/CIHI-ext-portal/pdf/internet/TA_09_ALLDATATABLES20111028_EN
That’s great Wilson! Thanks. I’ll have to spend some time studying those figures.
Too bad private clinics not required to provide info too.
So Wilson, if I’m interpreting those stats correctly, then there were at least 552 abortions in Canada after 21 weeks, right?
Yes, but all of the stats do not differentiate between medically necessary and elective procedures.
Sadly, all pregnancies do not have happy endings.
So I would assume, without the facts, that these late term figures are for medically necessary reasons.
note
In 1991 the Supreme court made a ruling using sec. 223 (400 yr old law), where 2 midwives were not found negligent in aiding in the birth of a baby, who died in the birthing process.
Yes, but all of the stats do not differentiate between medically necessary and elective procedures.
Good point. Thanks.
Sadly, all pregnancies do not have happy endings.
Indeed.
I watched this interview on SNN and was very impressed with the MP. Michael was overly aggressive in my opinion, constantly trying to bait the MP, but the MP remained polite and presented his case in a most reasonable way. What is being put forward is to bring a 400 year old law up to date based on medical evidence, which only makes sense. According to the outdated law an infant with still one toe not outside is not considered a human being. At least that was my understanding of it. I think this would be a reasonable start for having a national debate on the subject. I also think that those who insist that all abortion be made illegal; in other words it is all or nothing, do not help matters. The same applies to the all or nothing crowd of pro-abortion in that there must be no restriction whatsoever and that it must be funded by the state.
I agree Alain. The hardliners at either end of the spectrum don’t help matters.
Yes Stephen Woodworth handled himself very well I thought.
If you want to talk about an overly aggressive interviewer though, check out Evan Solomon!
Typical Solomon, trying to frame a wedge between Mr Woodworth and the PM and also between the Conservatives and the Opposition.
Mr Woodworth handled him well,anyone listening to him would know he’s not taking an extreme view, rather a common sense approach on an issue that is crying out for some dialogue on an important issue long overdue for debate.
Yeah I’m sure Evan only wanted to interview him to try to stick him with a ‘gotcha’ moment. Stephen didn’t allow himself to get backed into a corner.
Joanne, I don’t disagree, but I tend, perhaps wrongly, to expect better from Michael Coren. I have also seen him do much better in interviewing, but I have also seen him at times when for my tast he was over the top. I had the impression he was determined to drag the MP into stating he was either out to make abortion illegal or had no problem with it, which would have shut down any chance of a reasonable debate. From my own take the majority of Canadians do not approve of late term abortions nor the state paying for them, but at the same time they would not go along with making all abortions illegal. While I am pro-life and against abortion completely, I realise that I am in a minority where the present culture is concerned.
I hear you Alain, on all counts.
And when it comes to those late term abortions, can we at least administer a pain killer as a more humane way of doing it? That’s what I would like to know.
The very thought of having to administer painkillers to the unborn before aborting them sounds like murder to me. It’s invokes a sickening feeling. How can we as evolved humans, with all the information available to us be worse than the animal kingdom?
However, having a such a law should make those who have abortions and those who perform them consider the magnitude of their actions.
Sorry, I’m not being too rational, but this upsets me mo end.
However, having a such a law should make those who have abortions and those who perform them consider the magnitude of their actions.
Well exactly. We treat animals with more compassion.
More info here.
Amen!
-Science still can not prove that ‘potential life’ at any gestational age will result in live birth.
That’s why the law has been around for 400 years.
-If you believe that life begins at conception, what difference will it make if the law date stamps ‘humans’ at say 20 weeks or 22 weeks or 30 weeks?
-The provinces put in there own laws when the federal law was struck down.
The Medical Assoc guidelines state that a fetus is viable at 20 weeks. (21 weeks on is considered late term)
I can’t see any agreement between the two sides on an abortion law,
with the possible exception of late term ‘elective’ procedures being prohibited .
But that too would bring you full circle back to my first 2 points.
I think Stephen Woodworth’s proposition is to have a discussion about possible rights for unborn children, and as such I would argue that the later the gestational age the greater chance of viability as well as various senses being developed; especially that of touch (and pain.)
Even if you believe that life begins at conception, it can certainly be scientifically proven that viability does not.
I suggest a major deterrent would be to cease having this elective surgery, for that is exactly what it is, cease being covered under health care. To include it under the title of health care is an oxymoron. Under the Liberals whenever any province attempted to refuse coverage if only because it was performed in private clinics, Ottawa stepped in and demanded the coverage regardless. If we were allowed a national referendum on the matter, I wager that the vast majority would be opposed to the funding.
And yet PEI somehow manages to escape all this although it does fund out of province abortions.
I agree! I’d rather see funded contraception than funded abortion unless it’s a medical necessity to save the mother’s life.
That frankly is my standout issue on this subject. I have moved on with the morality other than obviously the tax payer funded, progressive ‘sex-ed’ is a huge failure….. 50 years ago, kids knew what the consequences were and abstained longer. Now kids ( and adults) know the consequences at an early age and still create this drama in their lives. It absolutely needs to have a pay back consequence.
Everything you say here makes sense to me Bec.
The lefties and feminists would be shrieking though. They want their entitlements.
There are two doctors in jail, charged with murder, after 35 dead, frozen post abortion babies were found in their freezer.
These were the product of abortion and were born alive and then killed.
At one point, each and everyone of us was a fertilized egg. From conception, we were present. Just realize that thanks to our parents, we were not aborted. How many of us have heard of individuals who were told that one of their parents wanted an abortion but, thankfully, their lives were spared by the partner who said no.