Opto Civilitas

You need to keep up with Twitter to watch all the drama unfold, but BC Blue had the background covered here – Potty-mouth NDP Pat Martin.

But now we have it straight from the horse’s ass mouth that his account wasn’t hacked. This, my friends, is MP Pat Martin’s definition of ‘civility‘. And as with all things left, the rules don’t apply to him – just everyone else.

I wonder what delicate cabinet position Mr. Martin would get in his Merger Dream Team? Minister of Foreign Affairs? Ah, imagine the headlines.

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More Twitter rumblings: (Irony Department)

Firing of Sportsnet broadcaster after gay marriage tweet tests religious freedom, free speechNational Post:

The firing of broadcaster Damian Goddard, who was let go from Sportsnet six months ago, is turning into a test case about religious freedom in Canada and the right to declare those views in public.
Mr. Goddard lost his job after he wrote on Twitter only marriage between a man and a woman is a “true” marriage…

What do you think? Should a public figure or politician be fired for something they write on Twitter?

More on Martin: Media circle wagons to protect NDP Pat Martin for Twitter F-bombsBC Blue

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Friday Update

Don’t miss this column by John IvisonAdvice for the opposition parties: Shut the #!*% up:

…It’s not as if the various component bills that make up the Safe Streets and Communities Act have not been debated in Parliament. The bill as it stands has had four days of debate, comprising 16 hours and 53 speeches, not to mention nine days at committee. But much of its content has been hanging around Parliament since the Conservatives were elected in 2006. In total, including review in the Senate, the component bills have had 53 days of debate, made up of 95 hours and 261 speeches, since they were first introduced, according to the House leader’s office. Not quite the trampling of democracy the opposition parties suggest.

In fact, most of the legislation in front of the House has been thoroughly aired – bills to modernize copyright, kill the long-gun registry, open up the wheat board, and create more seats in the House of Commons have all appeared in one form or another in previous parliaments…

Dear Opposition Parties: You lost. Get over it.

This entry was posted in Canadian Parliament, Canadian Politics, Free vs hate speech, Freedom of Speech, Hypocrisy, Media Party, MSM bias, NDP, Too many Fools on the Hill, Twitter, Voter cynicism, Your tax-dollars. Bookmark the permalink.

63 Responses to Opto Civilitas

  1. Platty says:

    Public figures, especially politicians, know that their every move is on display and that they need to conduct themselves accordingly. It’s unfortunate if they are seen doing or saying something inappropriate when they are out just trying to be “one of the guys”, however, when they are commenting in an arena which they know full well is for public consumption, and making these types of comments, then they are crossing a line. Martin knows this, which would lead a person to the conclusion that either a) He was/is having a personal crisis or b) Had a little shot of courage before making the comments.


  2. Fay says:

    It is a mystery that he won his riding in Winnipeg Center. There were lots of signs in residential yards for the conservative candidate. Mr. Martin made headlines in Winnipeg for inappropriate verbal attacks during debates. He is one scary individual.
    I find this firing at sportsnet the last straw. The human rights speech police need to be shut down. This man and his family are victims . It is time for Canadians to stand up for this family and stop this.

  3. wilson says:

    re; firing over pro-man/women marriage,
    he should sue for wrongful dismissal.
    He would win, imo.
    This man did:

    Nov 15/2011

    ”..An Edmonton man’s charter rights to freedom of expression were infringed when he was charged with trespassing while distributing anti-gay (and anti-abortion) pamphlets at University of Calgary more than three years ago…’

    Read more: http://www.canada.com/news/Court+clears+Alberta+handing+anti+pamphlets+trespass+charge/5716009/story.html#ixzz1dyaRP4hJ


  4. Liz J says:

    He’s a real horse’s ass and yes, he’s scary.

    His twitter account wasn’t hacked, his brain was and he can’t blame that on anyone but his very scary thought process.

    He’s a disgrace to public office.

  5. Platty says:

    To clarify, I was speaking of Pat Martin’s comments, not Damian Goddard. Martin’s comments were offensive, Goddard’s were most certainly not offensive. I predict that Sportsnet will be backing the money truck up to Damian Goddard’s door and eating their words while doing so.

  6. wilson says:

    Dippers anti-oilsands jaunt to Washington cost them seats at next week’s climate change convention, not invited as Canadian representatives.
    Minister Kent is leaving the kids at home, without a babysitter.

    “We have seen, and I would expect, no helpful comment from the opposition environment critics in what will be for us a challenging COP 17,” he said, referring to the highest body of the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change.

    Read more: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20111117/opposition-parties-climate-talks-ottawa-environment-111117/#ixzz1dyl7XSbl

  7. Mary T says:

    Wonder if his leader will punish him, send him to the back bench and silence him.
    Yesterday in QP was priceless with all the put downs to the ndp questions by our side.
    And I love how every members statement from our side usually ends with, not fit for government.
    OT, but did Megan Leslie get any face time in DC with anyone of importance. Watching Waxman on tv at some hearing and yikes, what an idiot.
    Are there any polls out re who has support for jack’s job.
    Still think the video guy should play him in the cbc movie, but like others, wonder who will play the massage lady.

    • alan says:

      You just have to think that the NDP is seriously considering the fact that it can’t be business as usual for the NDP in the HoC.
      The NDP, as the new Official Opposition, simply can’t behave as the NDP of old and expect to be considered as relevant and effective as a “government in waiting”. The words and deeds of the NDP matter now.

      Martin is simply being (angry/abrasive) Martin (even more so, it seems), and that just can’t be seen as acceptable by leader Nycole Turmel or Brian Topp or Thomas Mulcair or any of the leadership contenders. Trying to temper him will be a difficult task.
      A public chastising or censuring of Martin would go far, but I wouldn’t expect anything close to that from the struggling interim NDP leader. But until Martin is reigned in, he will continue to be a black eye for the NDP and his constituents in Winnipeg.

  8. Bubba Brown says:

    Sounds like the nasty NDPQ MP Pat Martin is slightly off massage whoops! message. LOL
    To think that we thought it was going to be the NDPQ kids that were going to have difficulty learning their jobs and providing civility in the house.
    Pat Martin was disgraceful in his treatment of Minister Oda.
    Just a little potty mouth bully. IMO

  9. DonOntario says:

    I find it interesting that so many people were up in arms and said they were horribly offended when it was alleged that Toronto Mayor Rob Ford swore at a 911 operator, but those same people don’t care that Pat Martin told a member of the general public, possibly one of his constituents, to f*** off.

    I’m not easily offended, so Martin’s first comment calling the Conservatives’ behaviour a “f***ing disgrace” didn’t really bother me – I thought it was noteworthy because it showed him to be unprofessional, but that was about it. I thought his response to the person who called him a “foul-mouthed socialist” was much worse.

    And “foul-mouthed” and “socialist” are pretty much neutral, objective facts, considering that Martin had just publicly swore (foul-mouthed) and that the NDP constitution says that the party is against private profit (socialist).

  10. fh says:

    I have decided to go lower case with the opposition moniker I don’t want to be accused of shouting at them I am using ndpq as they now represent Quebec and ROC should be concerned that they might have a Quebec preference in most of their policies

  11. Calgary Junkie says:

    PM Harper campaigned on getting all this legislation passed within the first 100 sitting days of Parliament. Informed voters know about this promise, and so won’t get overly upset about whatever legitimate parliamentary procedures he uses to get that outcome.

    This nitpicking by Martin is another example of the mistake the Dippers and Libs have been making for the last five years–they over-react on PROCESS issues, while not offering up clear, coherent, costed POLICY alternatives of their own.

    The Dippers, IMHO, would be far better off to stick to a simple message, along the lines of: they would have different priorities for taxing and spending. Then offer up a few examples–increase the GST, cancel the F-35s, bring in a national pharma-care plan, whatever.

    Looking at the big picture, the Opps again display that they just don’t know how to play the political game, anywhere near the level of PM Harper. They are not going to nitpick their way back to power, especially on arcane process issues. Voters expect more substance.

  12. wilson says:

    Dippers had alot more clout when they were the turd party in a minority govt.

    But it’s payback time.
    If Dippers don’t vote in a Quebecer as new leader, Mulcair….the ndpq will end up a footnote in the history books, imo.

  13. Gabby in QC says:

    Surprise, surprise! In an iPolitics opinion piece, Lawrence Martin says Pat Martin is justified in using expletives to express his “multi-coloured outrage, feigned or unfeigned”.

    Martin “the journalist” thinks Martin “the trash talker” is right on the substance of his outrage, i.e. that the Government has been wrong to use closure in order to expedite the passage of its bills.

    What Martin “the journalist” neglects to tell his readers is that
    a) The Conservatives are trying to keep their promise of passing legislation within 100 days of the opening of this parliament.
    b) Many of those bills do not require the “full debate” the opposition say they need because they were fully debated in previous parliaments, especially the omnibus crime bill (Bill C-10) and the one about the abolition of the gun registry (Bill C-19).

    Martin “the journalist” is right in one thing, however. Martin “the trash talker” provides the MSM with what it loves: lapping up whatever garbage the trash talker regularly spews out. And Martin “the trash talker” loves to bask in that attention.

  14. Joanne says:

    F-ing Pat Martin on F-ing CBC right now.

    No apology.

    • Fay says:

      the CBC continues to be predictable

    • Liz J says:

      It’s not acceptable for a member of our House of Parliament of any party to behave in such an obnoxious manner using totally unacceptable language on a forum accessible to the public.

      He needs to be called to account by all members of Parliament who have even a modicum of decency and respect for the people who put them there.

      We need to get something going to demand he not only apologize but be asked to step down as an MP.

  15. DonOntario says:

    From The Globe and Mail: NDP profanity marks Parliament’s hastened decline under Tories

    So the NDP campaign on restoring the civility in Parliament, and after the election promise to improve the tone of discussion and debate. And then after Martin’s outbursts, the Globe says its the Tories’ fault???

  16. wilson says:

    My friends, Love is Better Than Anger.
    (greetings from NDP Pat Martin)

  17. wilson says:

    Thanks to Dippers being loud, rude, on the attack and talking over everyone else on the panel,
    that was pretty much the worst Power & Politics Ive seen in a long while.

    Oh well, Canadians are getting a real good look at the Official Opposition.

    Opps trying to blurrr the lines between milk/poultry supply management and the CWB.
    Supply management is a ‘nationwide’ pool , for ‘domestic’ market, that ensures producers make a profit.
    Canadian Wheat Board is ‘Western Canada’ only pool, for ‘export’ market, that ensures the CWB takes the cream off the top and leaves the domestic market for Eastern farmers to fill.

  18. ed says:

    ndpq: what a joke. Canada has a serious problem with such a disgraceful opposition. You’d think they’d cover their heads with brown paper bags when leaving Parliament.

  19. Joe says:

    As my old English teacher used to say, “When you resort to profanity you lose the argument”.

    • Liz J says:

      Thing is Martin is not going to apologize, he was simply using “construction language”, informing us he used to be a construction worker. Well, he isn’t doing anything constructive in his present job as an NDP MP aside from spewing venom when his apparent uncontrollable anger gets a head of steam. That’s not in the book as acceptable behaviour from a Member of our HOC.

  20. ed says:

    O/T: It Should Be A NO-BRAINER But It Isn’t.
    Monday, November 14, 2011 By: Howard Galganov


    “We are so stupid and casual as a people in the USA and Canada . . . that our collective stupidity that will murder our countries – is without bounds.


    Anne and I left Quebec in the year 2000 for the province of Ontario because of the lack of will amongst most of the English Community and LEFTIST English Media to stand-up against Ethnocentric Quebecois (French) Nationalism that passed and enforced laws making the unrestricted use of the English language ILLEGAL.

    How could we live amongst people who accepted their RIGHTS as PRIVILEGES?”


    So, what does this anti-American American President do in terms of giving final approval on an energy pipeline from Western Canada to the refineries in Texas (that was already approved), that would create some 20,000 GREAT paying US jobs across America, guaranteeing an affordable source of energy for generations to come? HE PUTS IT ON HOLD UNTIL AFTER THE 2012 ELECTION.


    It hardly took an hour for Canada’s Conservative Prime Minister (Stephen Harper) to announce that Canada will create a pipeline, but not to the USA, since Canada cannot hang around for more than one year for Obama to make a decision because of his personal political fortunes, but that the pipeline will instead cross the Rockies to the British Columbia Coast, where Chinese Tankers will be harbored waiting to take this liquid energy at top dollar to their shores.”

    Full article here: http://www.galganov.com/editorials/11-14-2011/barack-obama-2012/it-should-be-a-no-brainer-but-it-isnt/

  21. Joanne says:

    FYI the filter is having some issues. There were several great comments stuck in there overnight. Sorry about that.

  22. Richco says:

    Great Ivison column! In essence….if the Opposition wants to call the shots…..let THEM get elected to govern to do so.

    As for the Harper gov’t? They’re pretty much doing what they were elected to do.

    I feel very comfortable federally.

    Provincially? That’s another kettle of fish.

  23. Liz J says:

    The Opps lost, they can’t get over it,they have the power of a wet noodle so they’re reduced to cussin’ and feudin’ among themselves. Meanwhile, back at the farm the Conservative government continues to get things done and take care of business proving the people got it right.

  24. fh says:

    Canadians voted on May 02, 2011 and elected a strong majority Conservative party to be the Government of all Canadians
    opposition party was elected to oppose the Government on issues that they feel are not in the interest of all Canadians
    the continued inference that 60% of Canadians did not vote for the Conservative party is BS as far as having any importance there are four parties in the Parliament of Canada
    70% of Canadians did not vote for the ndpq party yet they stand with their BS as if they represent ALL Canadians

  25. Martin says:

    One of the Liberals who doesn’t get it, that they no longer form the government is Liza Frulla. On P&P she was again criticising the government for limiting debate on the legislation they campaigned on. She brought up the gun registry, which prompted the best line of the day from Ivison, “Do you think we haven’t had enough debate already” Even she was silent (not for long) after that.

  26. Richco says:

    O/T – this sure as heck better not happen or the PC’s will be seeing the last of me


    • Joanne says:

      I wonder who’s behind that site?

      • Sandy says:

        Another interesting thing. Today I received an e-mail update from Tim Hudak saying we had to be vigilant in the event there was another election in Ontario “next year.”

        Hmmm. I think I will reinvigorate CotM in the new year and keep hammering on Ontario issues. Something is afoot.

        Either that or Hudak is meeting this Rossi challenge head-on in the name of “election readiness.”

        • Sandy says:

          Here is the e-mail letter:

          “I met with the Premier Dalton McGuinty this morning to stress the urgency of putting Ontario’s economy on a new path – the right path – and wanted you to be the first to know about our discussion.

          My meeting only served to confirm that Dalton McGuinty just doesn’t get it. He has no new ideas to address Ontario’s job crisis or reduce the size and cost of government.

          The same old ideas will not get us out.

          Today, I brought several urgent job creating and cost cutting ideas to the Premier directly. The most important measure I called for to get our province back to living within its means is a legislated, mandatory wage freeze for the public sector.

          Please click here to read more about our specific priorities as the Legislature resumes next week.

          Ontario has been losing 100 private sector jobs every hour since last month’s provincial election. It’s not unreasonable to expect our own public sector to forgo getting a raise.

          Sadly, Dalton McGuinty shot this idea down out of hand, choosing instead to stick to his failed measures and phony voluntary wage freeze.

          We will not stop pushing for this important measure to reduce the size and cost of government – and Ontario’s ballooning $16-bilion deficit.

          I thank you for all of your previous support, but I also encourage you to continue working hard so we will be ready to go into an election next year if necessary to restore Ontario as the economic leader in Canada.

          Yours truly,

          Tim Hudak”

          • Joanne says:

            Hi Sandy. Maybe all that ties in with this Star article – McGuinty ‘shoots down’ Hudak’s suggested wage freeze for 1 million workers.

          • Richco says:

            Hudak suggests Tories may try to trigger election next year (Ont-Minority)
            Source: The Canadian Press
            Nov 18, 2011 16:40

            TORONTO – Progressive Conservative Leader Tim Hudak is suggesting that his party may try to trigger an election next year to put Ontario’s economy back on track.

            In an email to the party faithful, Hudak slams Premier Dalton McGuinty for shooting down his idea to force a pay freeze on public sector workers through legislation.

            He urges the party to continue working hard so they “will be ready to go into an election next year if necessary to restore Ontario as the economic leader in Canada.”

            But the Tories wouldn’t be able to bring down the government on their own.

            They hold just 37 seats in the 107-member legislature, which means they’d need the support of the NDP, who have 17 seats.

            The Oct. 6 election saw the Liberals reduced to just 53 seats _ one short of a majority government.


          • Sandy says:

            Let the games begin. Only, looking at Greece and Italy, we know only too well, they are not really games. Yet, McGuinty has the nerve to say the two opposition leaders have no new ideas.

            The one thing we here know here is that the public service unions have nothing to fear from Ontario’s Liberals since they own them, lock stock and barrel.

            Now, what I hope is that Hudak gets very loud about putting Ontario’s finances back in order because that is the only way he will ever be Premier. He has to be different from McGuinty and he has to be different from Rob Ford. He has to actually say how he would turn Ontario around.

            And, not like a certain new Premier in Alberta. Actually proud of his conservative roots with policies that reflect those roots.

            Well, at least this possibility has motivated me to once again to actually read or listen to what is going on. Because the notion of four more years of McGuinty being in the pockets of public service labour is scary.

    • Liz J says:

      Yeah, that would pretty well make me a non-voter in Ontario.
      It makes no sense, gotta be some kind of mischief making going on.

      • Richco says:

        Where was that Tim Hudak a few months ago? Another election in 2012 isn’t about what Ontario needs as much as it’s what Sandy suggests in her post I think – maybe Hudak’s staking his claim on his leadership?

  27. Bubba Brown says:

    So our strong Conservative MAJORITY Government is moving forward on issues that have been delayed as long as six (6) years?
    Good! That is why 66% of the people that actually VOTED in the last Federal Election wanted.
    Strange how twisted potty-mouth-pat is getting “construction trash talkin’ wanna be tough guy”.
    I danced the steel my whole work life, one thing I can tell y’all if somebody like Pat who likes to pick on women, shot his mouth off on a work site, he would get “spanked”.
    I guess he can safely play “tough guy” in a virtual world a twit “twittering troll”
    Real Men and Women treat others with respect.
    Canadians deserve better than that from their elected MP”s
    Does anyone else find it just a little ironic that “Jackboot” is being thrown around by people that conspired to overthrow a legal election.
    I can assure you that the traitorous Coalition of the three stooges would not delay any legislation, they would have rammed it down our throats.
    They would have give Quebec control of Canada.
    Shut down the Oil Sands.
    Kissed up to the UN green monster, ruined our economy.
    Parliament is working.
    PM Harper promised this Legislation would pass within 100 days.
    A Promise Made A Promise Kept.
    Thank You PM Harper and all the Conservatives!
    Carry on Canada.
    This is what leadership looks like.

  28. cantuc says:

    Remember when Pat Meltdown was on P+P with Candice Heoppner when she was trying to pass her bill on the long gun registry ? Remember how it looked like he was about a half second from physically attacking her ? Remember how Solomon actually almost reprimanded him about strong talk ? Did you see him yesterday when Tom Liwkisky was taunting , goading , smugly laughing ( one of the things thats caused Martins meltdown on twitter ) sticking his hand right in Martins face , laughing at him again ? He did everything but pishnook him on the receding forehead . What did Martin do ? Not a damned thing . He sat there like a good little boy that knew he was n’t going to intimidate Likiwsky . He’s a damned coward and abuser.

  29. old white guy says:

    please don’t paraphrase barrack the magic one. “we won”.

  30. Gabby in QC says:

    Talking about civility … how refreshing to see Power & Politics interview a Conservative cabinet minister (Defence Minister Peter Mackay) about the fate of the F-35s and then a panel of three MPs discussing what to do about Syria without the moderator constantly interrupting the Conservatives with idiotic phrases like “I get that” or “To be fair …”.

    Solomon usually neither “gets it” nor is “fair.”

    Chris Hall is doing a great job today as moderator … so far. I hope he doesn’t disappoint later on during the program. I also find Rosie Barton much better in controlling so-called Power Panels than Solomon. The latter should stick to book reviews.

    • Joanne says:

      Missed Chris Hall today but I think *anyone* is better than Solomon.

    • jon says:

      I haven’t seen much of Hall in that capacity, only as a contributor on panels so I can’t really say one way or the other. But I would have to disagree with you on Barton. She’s as bad as Solomon, each of whom like to interrupt, disrupt, ask attack-laden questions, both in content and in tone of voice, to Conservatives MPs on the panel more than the opp, even when the focus of criticism IS the opposition, as with Pat Martin… and of course, interjecting with “but” 3 seconds into virtually every response to a question being answered by a Tory MP response before he/she can even finish their thoughts. It’s very frustrating, not to mention that the so-called “moderator” positions himself (or herself in the case of Barton) more as an opposition MP themselves… and again, even when the one under fire is not a gov’t MP they still hammer the Tory. With Martin’s comments, how many times was their an attempt made to put the Tory MPs on the defensive by saying things like “but does Pat have a point?”, ultimately running defense for Martin on the matter by saying that the gov’t’s actions are the root cause of his “frustration”.

      • Gabby in QC says:

        I guess it depends on the viewer’s perception, doesn’t it?

        I find Barton’s questions by and large legitimate ones, even though they may be pointed. It’s true, she does interrupt if the MP doesn’t answer the question directly reciting instead a litany of talking points from rote memory.

        Let’s face it, some MPs do that, and even if they are Conservatives, they should answer the questions asked of them. Otherwise, why go on such programs? A few MPs are particularly annoying that way, repeating the same thing over and over. IMO, they do a disservice to themselves and their party. Opposition MPs or representatives also do their parties a disservice by talking over others, monopolizing the time, or saying things that are simply untrue.

        Of the three, I rate today’s performance by Chris Hall the best, followed by Rosie Barton, despite her annoying giggle, and last and worst of the bunch, Solomon, simply because the latter feels compelled to participate in debates rather than moderating them, evoking answers from participants. He allows Ian Capstick to run off at the mouth but cuts off Tom Flanagan and Joan Crockatt, and often talks over others to present his own POV or to rehash someone else’s intervention. A really ineffective style, IMO. But that’s all it is, just my opinion.

        • Joanne says:

          …Solomon, simply because the latter feels compelled to participate in debates rather than moderating them, evoking answers from participants. He allows Ian Capstick to run off at the mouth…

          And Judy WashingMachine!

  31. jon says:

    OT but I hope everyone caught Ezra’s great show today on the “Occupy Toronto” squatfest, “invading” the public park at 4AM with the sun news crew and infrared cameras showing a majority of the tents being empty. Great job!

    And to no one’s surprise, the consensus media never picked up on the story. Of course, they will say that they have a policy of not mentioning competing networks either by name or the stories they’ve done, especially, I’m sure they would say, when someone brash, like Ezra, shows up unannounced, ambush-style, with mic-in-hand and a camera operator in tow… that’s just plain rude.

    Unless of course it’s the CBC sending Mary Walsh to ambush Ford, then both CTV and Global suddenly make an exception of course, mentioning CBC by name and their ambush on Rob Ford which each network seemed to have loved. Hudos to the CBC, they each thought, too good of a story to pass up and we gotta give the CBC credit.

    Also, I thought news networks always reported stories where reporters are roughed up, even if they’re from a competing network. They certainly did during the G20… and I’m not talking at the hands of police, I’m talking about protesters themselves, who, while engaging in acts of violence and vandalism, went after reporters who attempted to expose them simply by covering the news. When it comes to reporters being attacked, the media put aside that they compete with one another and united with a single voice, stating emphatically that the safety for reporters must be respected…. except if you’re SNN reporters roughed up, then they’re all silent.

    One can only imagine how someone like CTV’s LaFlamme, for example, would have done such a story if it involved a pro-life rally…

    “Tonight, the anti-abortion protesters who have occupied a Toronto city park for 5 weeks have suffered a major blow for their cause after a reporter from the CBC was roughed tonight, with one of the occupiers even going as far as to tear the eye glasses of the assult victim and running away with this… As CTV’s John Mussleman reports, critics say that tonight’s attack on the press may be what finally turns the public against the protesters once and for all.”

    • Joanne says:

      Ezra’s show was awesome!! Link here.

      Do tents have rights under the Charter? Ha-ha!

      • Liz J says:

        Yeah, great example of investigative journalism from Ezra. Loved his “outfit”, adding a bit of entertainment makes it more intriguing, no one does it better.

        Wonder if there’s a tent where the squatters go to collect their pay?

  32. cantuc says:

    Good God almighty . I just read some crap by Pat Martins other brother Don on ctv.ca . He’s actually trying to pass Martins Meltdown off as some divinely inspired strategic tweet from above . A work of bloody art , he says . . Just when you thought it couldn’t get any f’n stupider . Dumb and Dumber = Martin and Martin . Somebody ought to bungy them onto the front of a wheat train to Churchill .

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