How much longer can the imploding private sector afford to shore up the fairytale salaries and benefits of our various layers of civil servants?
Kelly McParland has broached the subject several times over the past few weeks:
…Yup, it must be great to be alive, if you’re a civil servant. Pumping cheap gas into the new car as you ponder how to spent your subsidized retirement. Kind of puts the lie to the notion of free enterprise. Maybe Jack Layton was right all along…
Now the Sun is honing in on the Ontario Liberal Government’s concern about keeping labour peace at any cost.
Christina Blizzard’s excellent column from yesterday’s Sun (Dwight delivers the D-word) demonstrates with chilling clarity just how far the McGuinty government is willing to go to prop up the public sector at the expense of the everyday common schmuck:
“We think having public servants still being adequately paid in the context of our economy … will yield benefits both in terms of those folks, they will go shopping, they will spend their money, they will invest it and we think we struck deals that are fair and done through collective bargaining,” Duncan said yesterday.
Blizzard adds her own scathing commentary:
…So when the going gets tough, public servants go shopping?
The cost of those pay hikes will be hidden in that $18 billion vortex. Our economy is shrinking. Scarce tax dollars of the few hard-pressed workers still employed are going to pay for a shopping frenzy for fat cats.
Unemployed factory workers can feed their kids cat food to get through hard times. Meanwhile, cosseted bureaucrats belly up to an all-you-can eat buffet. It’s shameful.
Today the Sun Editorial expands on Blizzard’s piece (McGuinty’s given away the store), saying that the Premier should remember that his mandate is to govern for the benefit of ‘all Ontarians, not just the ones who cash a government paycheque.’
I would add to that that Daddy Dalton is very good at force-feeding us bans and unwanted green plans. However when it comes to care and concern, clearly some animals are more equal than others on this farm.
I truly can’t think of a worse premier in our provincial history, and that includes Bob Rae.
And judging from the comments at the Sun, I have lots of company.
To paraphrase Marie Antoinette, I guess we can eat cake, while the public service unions dine on caviar smothered steaks.
Okay, let’s back it up a bit here. I am a civil servant and I resent the constant BS about us. I spent most of my career in the private sector before becoming a civil servant and I can tell you, there is deadwood in the private sector as well. There are abuses of priveleges, there is harassment, there is embezzlement…there are employees who earn huge salaries and do nothing. In the private sector, we have top execs of companies which they have run into bankruptcy but still collect huge performance bonuses.
Give your heads a shake and stop to think before you slam civil servants. Most of us work out butts off. As far as unions are concerned – uh, we don’t have unions in the private sector?
Cracks against civil servants are based upon ignorance and sheer stupidity.
East, where in this post was I slamming civil servants?
The difference in private sector and civil servants is Where does the money for the paycheque come from, and can the unpreformers be fired.
And I have been a fed civil servant and a provincal employee.
The biggest problem I saw while a fed civil worker is the way one applies for promotions ect. Most of the job postings started with, Open to those in the xxx range of salary. Never say anything about qualifications etc. Then there were the ones who spent a good part of their day calculatng when they could retire, and what their pension would be.
And we saw the way some spent hours going over their contracts and filing grievances. And to top it off we say carpooling and each member of the pool putting in mileage claims.
Those that did their job would get upset that they did all the work, while others got paid. You could tell who was on the s-list by who was on the line to let visitors in during very bad weather.
My intention is not to attack, but I ask:
Are you worried about losing your job EoE, not being able to make house payments and living on EI only?
Are you worried about your employer going down and losing your pension?
I think the point is that civil servants are recession proof,
and those of us who are worried or have experienced the above, resent civil servants getting salary and perk ‘increases’.
Just like our budgetary officer, Page, bitching because his budget was not INCREASED as promised,
and where is Page today?
Overseas on a very expensive junket of some kind (reported by Fife yeasterday),
spending taxpayers money.
Time for civil servants to ditch the entitlement attitude and come down to earth with the hand that feeds yah.
Even if civil servants don’t mean it,
they could at least pretend to ‘feel our pain’ rather than be a pain.
Well Dalton must not know many public servants. I cannot speak for Ontario but out here in BC they are noted for being cheap. It has been well documented that those who can afford to spend and buy Canadian- you know to keep good union jobs- in fact shop at places like Walmart and Thrift stores.
I personally know well paid friends who will spend a day- using a whole tank of gas- driving around looking for the best bargain they can find.
They think nothing of taking a winter holiday and basking in the hot sun and spending that well paid income outside of Canada.
So don’t hold your breath there Dalton waiting for your civil servants to get the economy going.
As for efficient. Well those same public servants have managed to lose my file. I am in the process of having my CPP points split and my file- which was in the system a week ago- is now sitting on someones desk and cannot be found. Sheesh!!!!!!
Funny, I hear the same complaints here in California about county government jobs… you should hear the stories about the DMV. I guess everyone all over is feeling the same things during this global economic time…
Joanne – it’s not your post. It’s the comment by Greg that set me off. And, it pisses me off when journalists slam us, as well. It’s just so wrong. Whenever the economy gets tight, the papers start to rag on us. We’re just like anybody else.
So, no worries, Joanne – it’s not you.
It’s the comment by Greg that set me off.
Ah, o.k. When I read Greg’s comment I thought he was referring more to the union leaders than the membership.
In any case, I didn’t want this to turn into a civil-servant-bashing post.
My issue is with the weak-kneeded governments that don’t want to rock the boat.
It was bad enough before, but these days it’s unconscionable. Something has to give.
MaryT – my colleague is two levels above me and she is one of the holdovers from the old days – she does practically nothing but collects a larger paycheque than I do. She cannot be fired because she’s only months from retirement. But, even in the private sector, it is difficult to fire people – more often than not, the employer eliminates the position in order to get rid of a person.
As for the source of salaries, all salaries come from us – either as taxpayers (civil servants) or consumers (private sector). The salaries for private sector employees don’t come out of thin air – customers pay for them. So, no matter who is the employee, we pay the salary. This is what angers me when we civil servants are slammed and I can assure everybody that I am not a fat cat by any means. I barely get by on my salary.
As far as promotions are concerned, the civil service is a nightmare. In the private sector, I moved up based on merit. Not so in the civil service, I can tell you.
I wish journalists would use their brains before spreading stereotypes about us and slamming us.
Any reports anywhere that the budget passed last night, or what the vote was.
And in regards to the request for liberal mps to get 400 new members and monthly pledges, I encourage all liberals to donate the same amount as your leader did last year, nothing.
Joanne, one thing that needs to be considered is that we will soon have a significant exodus from the civil services – baby boomer retirements are really starting to balloon. Unfortunately, the young people are not overly anxious to join the civil service because advancement is so slow and the civil service is perceived as being dull. Unfortunately, the unions (and I have no choice but to belong) have power but they do protect us. Even the civil service has its HR issues and without our unions, we could be shafted often.
Politicians who wish to curry favour with voters would love to can whole chunks of us without thinking of the consequences. Look what happened to things like meat inspection and water inspection – and the results of the reductions in staff.
East, I guess there are two sides to every story. Thanks.
A Week In The Life of A Redhead – Welcome to the discussion. I’m just curious to know how you arrived here. Thanks.
Being from Ottawa here’s the story. In good times most dont want anything to do with the PS…basically what East has said. In down times the PS is mocked as lazy and lucky. So here’s the question. If bailouts are the key to turning around the economy, why screw with the PS or the Teachers Unions or Hydro etc? Why not hire more of them? I have friends in Hydro Ontario that will retire with full benefits and pensions at 53 years old….but these guys as well at the PS and teachers dont horde money! Most Union members in this country are a huge part of our economy because they spend! The put on additions, they buy cars and vans, they build new homes..etc. It would seem to me that if a billion dollars equals 10,000 employees..then…double it! Take the money from Aboriginal Affairs. Then take another billion and hire 13,000 police offices or drug enforcement officers…reduce the insane pension packages thats killing our economy and go from there. 10 Billion dollars should equal 100,000 jobs…I could find it.
The public service is immune to the forces of the free market so they do not worry about bankruptcy and cutbacks. This creates an environment where there is no checks or balances to their demands. The unions have zero incentive to create a peaceful atmosphere in the workplace or with the public they serve. Unions serve themselves first and foremost: keep the dues rolling in, the perks flowing, grievances accumulating, and political interference growing.
Governments need to slowly break the grip of the civil service unions. Otherwise the public will become increasingly angry over this two-class system. IMO, in return for generous pay, job security and benefits there needs to be a higher threshold for striking (not a ban). Pay should be more in line with the private sector (benchmarking). Union membership should be voluntary. That way both the employees and public would be better served. Surprisingly, not all public employees are overpaid. When my former company did benchmarking, they found that trades and techs were below private industry equivalents.
LCB – Great perspective. Thanks for that.
A private business will cut staff if not making enough to cover salaries. Civil and public service increase taxes to cover costs if not making enough to cover salaries.
Canadians have every right to freedom to speak out when we are taxed more year after year for mediocore service.We have already been told that civil servants are in no hurray to process funding for infrastructure to stimulate the economy.They no there is a bottemless pit to fund their salaries and pensions.
Fay and Mary T. makes a good point. By virtue of using taxpayer’s money to pay the civil service many people feel they have a vested interest in speaking up either in favour of or against the civil service.
East of Eden started with “Give your heads a shake before you slam civil servants. Most of us work our butts off” and then later..”pisses me off when journalists slam us.”
Right EOE, just like when folks here suggests that all journalists are given a bum rap for the bias of some. Have you or others given consideration to how it feels when writers are all painted with the same brush? Some have, but largely if you contributed to the discussion, then we can all be just as guilty of buying into the hype and myths of just about anything, right?
If you all want to be really annoyed at how the Ontario public service is breaking the bank – because EOE, you have to admit there ARE exceptions to the hard workers and lower paid servants, go to the Ontario Ministry of Finance website, then look under “Salary Disclosure”. If this meets with your approval and if private sector workers doing the same job get the same money, then it would appear that the civil service in Ontario are just getting their fair share. If not, we have a glut using the system.
If that fair?
No wonder Kinsella jumped ship. The rats always do go first.
There are abuses in any business – whether public or private. I am not an Ontario civil servant so I can’t speak for Ontario. I do know that my union had no room for negotiation – it was accept or get nothing. And the raise was not much.
Most of us work hard and produce meaningful results. As for the private sector laying off when profits are down – well, let me tell you as somebody who was laid off twice in the private sector. Lots of those companies lay off their employees and then hire many of them back as consultants. They are off the books and that looks good to shareholders.
I worked in one industry that laid of tens of thousands of employees. Every employee who was laid off in my area left on a Friday and was back on Monday at the same desk, same e-mail, same job, same everything but…as a consultant earning about 50% more than as an employee. But, they were no longer on the books.
Layoffs are also used to get rid of problem employees. That happened to me years ago – the owner of my company wanted his son in my position so he eliminated my position and, to make it legal when he hired his son, he re-wrote the job description. Voilà – I was gone.
True, civil servants have job security but that’s one of our negotiated positives. The ones who are making the huge bucks are not the rank and file. The politicians vote themselves huge raises and people forget. The top mandarins have huge salaries but nobody cares. However, the rank and file civil servants are ripe for picking. That is what bothers me.
The politicians vote themselves huge raises and people forget.
Maybe so, but they don’t have ‘job security’.
Mary T, the budget passed, no surprise there.
http://www.thestar.com/article/581867
There were two comments a minute ago.
EoE, I agree that the biggest problem in both the public and private sectors where unions are involved is the difficulty that the employer has in getting rid of the dead wood, the non-performing grievance filing lazy ass pieces of pasture pie that are a detriment and an anchor which drags their peers down with them.
Sorry Mary T, my bad, didn’t catch the date.
The budget vote is supposed to be today, March 5th.
OT, here’s a link to the Budget Estimates;
http://www.dailycommercialnews.com/nw/10421/en
“The salaries for private sector employees don’t come out of thin air – customers pay for them. So, no matter who is the employee, we pay the salary.”
Yes. The only difference is a little word called “choice”. If a company sells crappy products, soon there will be no more money to pay salaries. My taxes, however, are not optional.
Why are the Canadian MSM not reporting this?
“Canadian Lawmakers Approve Flaherty’s Budget, Stimulus Package
Email | Print | A A A
By Alexandre Deslongchamps and Greg Quinn
March 4 (Bloomberg) — Canadian lower house lawmakers voted to approve Finance Minister Jim Flaherty’s budget, which projects C$84.9 billion ($66.6 billion) in deficits over the next five years.
The plan passed by a vote of 204 to 78, after legislators from the Liberal Party, the biggest opposition bloc, supported it. The other opposition parties voted against the budget. The bill now goes to the Senate, where it will likely be approved as the unelected upper chamber rarely blocks legislation.
It was the third and final vote on the budget in the lower house. A defeat on a budget bill would trigger an election under the country’s parliamentary tradition.
Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s Conservatives hold 143 of the legislature’s 308 seats and need opposition support to pass laws and stay in power. The Liberals haven’t tried to bring down the government, saying Canadians want legislators to deal with the economic crisis.
The budget projects a C$1.1 billion deficit for the current fiscal year. The deficit will widen to C$33.7 billion in fiscal 2009-10 and C$29.8 billion in 2010-11 as the government provides funding for infrastructure, low-income families and tax credits for home renovation.
To contact the reporters on this story: Alexandre Deslongchamps in Ottawa at adeslongcham@bloomberg.net; To contact the reporter on this story: Greg Quinn in Ottawa at gquinn1@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: March 4, 2009 18:06 EST”
Thanks for that story, Bruce. Direct link here.
I like this part:
“The bill now goes to the Senate, where it will likely be approved as the unelected upper chamber rarely blocks legislation.”
Well, they’d better send a copy of that to the Liberal Senate House Leader.
Bruce – Why are the Canadian MSM not reporting that Canadian Lawmakers Approve Flaherty’s Budget Stimulus Package?
The same reason it’s not at the top of the discussion here or any other blogs that I’ve visited today.
Boring, and good news/gossip doesn’t sell papers. Good news doesn’t raise passions or misery as does the continual struggles and scandals.
East of Eden – you wrote that private sector companies lay off their employees and then hire them back as consultants. That hasn’t been my experience, when I’ve been laid off I stayed laid off.
Each year about this time school boards start ramping up the rhetoric about not being able to make its budget and go the the media to give us the bad news that teachers may be laid off. A few months go bye with this subject making the rounds from talkradio to parent groups, and each and every year those teachers miraculously all have jobs when school resumes in September. Let’s also not forget those retired teachers and principals who come back AFTER they retire to continue to teach after they’ve received their retirement gratuities.
I can tell you that just like the private sector people retire from the civil service and then are hired by the gov’t as consultants. Want to see a truckload of retired school board types still being paid by taxdollars…check out the number the MOE has hired on to work for them.
Private, public, doesn’t really matter, if you’re working consider yourself one of the lucky ones. If there are abuses at all levels and no one’s reporting them…we’re all accomplices to the problem.
“Give your heads a shake and stop to think before you slam civil servants. Most of us work out butts off. As far as unions are concerned – uh, we don’t have unions in the private sector?
Cracks against civil servants are based upon ignorance and sheer stupidity”
Not to start a big argument Eden, but you are guilty of the same ignorance on your posts regarding CAW workers and how you would like to see our backs broken, which by the way is an interesting way of putting it due to two back surgeries required from my job. 99% of the GM, Ford, and Chrysler workers bust their asses doing a car every 47 seconds. Nobody stands around, everyone is overclocked, and every September the companies try to add more work to our jobs. The worst jobs to get a repetitive type injury from, just ask any WSIB ergonomic rep. The job I did installing tires for 10 years was ruled unsafe for women, as the physical stresses exerted on the body were too much.
CAW workers produce more cars with fewer workers. Ask any reputable mechanic about quality of cars and they will tell you most are the same now. In fact feeder plants produce parts for all manufacturers under the same roofs.
Yes we do have the slackers and whiners that most workplaces have, but those line jobs are no walk in the park. The last time we hired people quit after three days, deciding the job wasn’t worth $30 an hour, young people in their early twenties were in tears because of the pain there bodies were feeling.
I fully support the idea of the unions giving concessions to help the companies, but I also feel that at a time when governments are facing huge deficits, maybe the unions representing civil servants might want to temper their demands as well.
End of rant.
p.s. I still love reading your posts Eden:0)
C.C. said;
Bruce – Why are the Canadian MSM not reporting that Canadian Lawmakers Approve Flaherty’s Budget Stimulus Package?
The same reason it’s not at the top of the discussion here or any other blogs that I’ve visited today.
Boring, and good news/gossip doesn’t sell papers. Good news doesn’t raise passions or misery as does the continual struggles and scandals.
C.C., it is news worthy of mention after all of the bluster from Iggy and the Liberals, the reason it is not even mentioned by the MSM is that it makes Iggy and the Liberals look weak, which they obviously are. This is why we haven’t been subjected to the myriad polls that the Liberal boot licker’s gleefully trot out many times a week.
“Well, they’d better send a copy of that to the Liberal Senate House Leader.”
Joanne, that’s a good idea seeing that they won’t be reading through any of our MSM.
Sorry I set you off EofE, but my first comment was specifically refering to any union asking for a raise during this time. If you feel your union deserves a raise, then I guess my comment does apply. The private sector generates 100% of the wealth that pays all of our wages, the public sector at best supports the wealth creation activity. If the wealth generators are cutting back, then they can hardly afford to support higher wages, and therefore higher taxes. In fact with the cut backs, it seems obvious to me that there will be fewer taxpayers, bith indviduals and corporations, making the burden on those still struggling to survive even greater. Twenty or more years later the public sector unions still whine about Rae days, as if that should be their lifetime contribution to belt tightening. Since that time I have worked for two private sector companies, one union, one not, where workers had to participate in work share, losing 1 day per week for several months. Right now I’m going to lose 4 days pay this year, even though the company is still profitable, because we need to set an example.
To CC & others regarding the budget – I’ll celebrate when it gets through the Senate in one piece.
I fully support the idea of the unions giving concessions to help the companies, but I also feel that at a time when governments are facing huge deficits, maybe the unions representing civil servants might want to temper their demands as well.
Well said, Paulsstuff.
And I’ll reiterate my point that with the public sector, the government of the day is responsible for how much entitlement the unions receive – especially if that government has controlling power such as is the case with the present Ontario government.
The other problem is how quickly new hires adopt a union mentality. The newbies would start with such an enthusiastic, gungho attitude. Often with words like “I don’t understand why everyone complains… this job pays well and is easy compared to most” A coworker and I would remark that to each other that we should record their words and play it back to them in 2-3 years. By that time they too would be at the union meeting, ranting at the unfairness of it all.
Darn, I hit submit instead of preview…forgive my typos.
Has anyone heard any of the blowbag Unionistas mention anything about lowering wages to help keep jobs?
“I’ll celebrate when it gets through the Senate in one piece.”
PM Harper and the Conservatives should not bend at all, if the Liberals are fool hardy enough we will go to an election, which will result in the Liberals having fewer seats and the Conservatives finally getting their majority.
It must be really tough to be a Lieberal these days.
Here’s something Liz J;
“Consumers will ‘come running back,’ says CAW president”
http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/fp/Consumers+will+come+running+back+says+president/1357090/story.html
PM Harper and the Conservatives should not bend at all, if the Liberals are fool hardy enough we will go to an election, which will result in the Liberals having fewer seats and the Conservatives finally getting their majority.
I agree. the Liberals are really backing themselves up against a wall now. I think it’s a big mistake.
They already have the ‘report card’ edict which they can use to pillory the Government if they misbehave.
Joanne, the ‘report card’ is way too funny, seeing as quarterly reports to parliament were already part of the budget in the first place.
Bruce – Which is why the Government had no trouble allowing it.
well said Greg. My husband has had to take days without pay since December. One week then and now three days before the end of March. The union was read the riot act by the owners – either you make concessions or they close up shop and move out.
I’m not suggesting that good workers aren’t worth a pay raise, but like you say, the timing couldn’t be worse.
Money paid to commercial establishments is on a voluntary basis. Money paid to government, of any stripe, is obligatory. But as it has been said “If you are paying income tax you do have an income.”
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