Raphael over at Unambiguously Ambidextrous posted a thought-provoking piece on the viability of big Ontario unions in this time of economic turmoil. He foresees a total collapse because the economy cannot sustain increasing demands from the union leadership, while the people that support their huge wages are losing their jobs. Public sector unions are fast becoming the worst offenders; a problem which Raphael sees extending into the rest of Canada. (Raph, please correct me if I have misinterpreted your position.)
…There is a simple and inevitable end result to all of this. Total collapse. There is nothing sustainable about public sector unions and their wanton drive to bring their representatives to the highest and most generous paid positions in the economy at a time when the private sector taxpayers are struggling just to hang on. When the boom is lowered, and it will, there will thousands of whiny public sector employees on Employment Insurance and welfare, wondering why they allowed the union to negotiate them into insolvency…
Dalton McGuinty is in a difficult position now, because unions backed him during the election, and they are expecting payback now. However, Dalton certainly didn’t expect the economy to tank this badly way back then. Although Ontario managed to avoid a technical recession in the third quarter, the outlook is bleak for 2009. All Dalton has come up with so far is a strategy of pep talks.
Yeah. Rah-rah.
Meanwhile, people are losing their jobs, losing their savings, and yet the big union leaders continue to demand more. Something has to give.
As Angelo Persichilli points out in today’s Star, the taxpayer is beginning to lose patience with these self-centered actions. Unions in Europe lend to push for better working conditions that will benefit all workers – not just those belonging to the union, and so they are actually working towards a social justice goal on a larger scale than those in North America. (And then of course we have the Sid Ryan types that interpret social justice to mean taking sides in volatile international political situations and preventing certain identifiable groups from teaching in our universities.)
The second point that Persichilli makes is that it is an unsustainable situation for public sector unions to be constantly demanding higher wages, while their private sector counterparts are being laid off or losing their jobs. Something has to give. The tap’s running dry.
The Canadian voter is going to have to be prepared to be the victim of rampant strikes unless the big unions reign in their expectations. McGuinty and Co. can no longer afford to continue to appease them unless taxes are raised on business and employees, which would be a death sentence for the province during a recession.
And as Perschilli observes, in the real world if you don’t have a demand for your product, you don’t last long:
…Furthermore, I understand that one of the requests of the York University strikers is “job security.” That security comes from demand by consumers for the product on offer. If there is no such demand, I don’t understand why we have to keep paying for a job that’s not needed...
Unions may still have a role in today’s society. Certainly safety concerns and working conditions are still important goals worth fighting for. However, we have a myriad of government agencies and bureaucracies to address these problems now. The sweatshop days are long gone, for the most part.
The ‘Us vs. Them’, self-centered, power-mongering mentality of big union leaders who try to justify their existence at the expense of the rest of society has got to end.
So, I agree with Raphael to a certain extent. Let reality hit. We may have to endure some inconvenience as our teachers, municipal workers, provincial and federal employees all go on strike and the whole country grinds to a halt.
Painful, but necessary.
Then as Raphael says, we can start over.
The Health Sector unions in BC have taken a more conciliatory approach to their activities but is still a very militant undercurrent that will raise its ugly head in 2010 when the current contracts expire.
Administrating their contracts is complex and time consuming at a cost that I feel they should bare. Let the unions take over all the aspects of benefits and pay and negotiate a total contract rather than specific job categories. This way they could/can compensate their members anyway they wish and leave the businesses free to run the business rather than spending so much time on union issues. Would be a wonderful new focus!!
Re: Dalton and the unions – maybe what we see happening with the unions, particularly the elementary teachers in Ontario, will give the McGuinty liberals a chance to put into legislation some new rules on essential services, and negotiations.
I recall that when Dalton was in opposition he championed a private member’s bill to change the union laws and collective bargaining, so that citizens and children wouldn’t be held hostage.
Given his majority he could conceivable revisit all of this.
The question is, would he do it now that the unions are in his pocket and vise versa?
when minimum wage jobs are paying taxes that support jobs that pay in excess of 50k a year this country has a serious problem.
The question is, would he do it now that the unions are in his pocket and vise versa?
Good question, CC.
And Harper’s hands are tied with respect to Federal public servants, courtesy of the Coalition of the Swilling.
Until some leader has the guts to pull a Reagan and fire them all, nothing will change too much.
Why is it unions think nothing of the people who lose jobs or face layoffs while they strike for higher pay, but cry like babies if their cushy jobs are threatened, by plant closures.
We might be surprised at how many jobs could be eliminated with one person doing the job of three union guys, efficiently and competently.
Public sector unions are fast becoming a working class of their own, I grow weary of paying for benefits that the ordinary Joe/Jane doesn’t get. Time for these folks living in job lalalal land at my expense to be brought back to the cruel realities of the average worker.
The fact that they are ready to strike against the people that put the food in their mouths, the roof over their heads is a telling fact. Go out on strike elementary teachers. I’ll just move my kids to the catholic system or consider it as YARTHS. (yet another reason to consider home schooling)
OT – but has anyone seen this
http://mesopotamiawest.blogspot.com/2009/01/plan-b.html
It is hard enough to fight the left without fighting the right too. Please go and leave a comment as I am sure I will be taken to task for being blinded by Harper. Sigh
As you were…..
Wow, AG, those people are foolish. Did they not learn anything from 1993 on???
When out of control capitalism was starving working class of Europe communists started revolution in Russia and eventually created so called communist block.
Back than communists were educated enough to take over complete control of businesses that were exploiting workers and they run these businesses all by themselves learning in a process that it was not so easy to be a capitalist.
In today’s Canada nobody talks about revolution or nationalisation of industry as all politicians and all union bosses know that they are too stupid to try to run any business. All that politicians know how to do is raise taxes and all that union bosses know is how to blackmail politicians and business people in order to extract maximum amount of money from them.
Wecome to bastardised communism in Canadian style run by middlemen.
How about the public sector unions out in the streets supporting Hamas?
Looking at a video posted on Five Feet of Fury would sicken anyone who takes pride in our civil society.
We see a woman in a burka, which means she’s probably very religious, spitting at someone she disagrees with. Another, or maybe the same one, couldn’t bear to watch it twice, telling a Jewish kid he’s going to fu**in’ die.
What kind of religion spews that kind of hate? Why are they not hauled off the streets in a paddy wagon?
Oh, forgot, Trudeau’s Charter.
It’s not enough for Unions to take care of their own business, now they’re interfering into Foreign Affairs, far beyond their mandate.
Blazing Cat Fur is also having a hissy fit about this.
http://blazingcatfur.blogspot.com/
Mr. Harper, I hope you are paying attention.
hissy fits and one-trick ponies are worth the time Mary T. and AG. I think Ezra explained brilliantly the thinking behind the PM on the HRC. Ezra’s wasn’t a hissy fit but a well thought out response.
Ezra needs to try to clamp down on his troops, or the cause will sink even further in the quicksand with PM Iggy in charge, backed up by Kinsella, who supports Warman.
Or perhaps Mr. Harper can throw us a bone once in a while. Lord knows, we true blues need one. Saw in CTV yesterday that there is talk of a 40B deficit! That doesn’t sit too well with me. My two “causes” are cutting spending and overturning the myth that is global warming. We need a bone, Mr. Harper.
But I will give Mr. Harper a chance to get his majority. If we don’t, we’re toast, because a new Lib gov’t will tilt the country even further left. And our mountain to climb will be that much higher.
add to my two causes (maybe three causes!) would also be cutting taxes.
How did these HRCs come to exist?
Was it legislation? Does it require legislation to change/get rid of them?
If all that is required is a stroke of the Prime Minister’s pen, then the “one trick ponies” have something to complain about.
If it requires legislation, perhaps the “ponies” should get to work and help get the Prime Minister a majority.
I am beginning to think there is no hope of a Conservative majority. There are just too many “one trick ponies” out there.
They will work hard to splinter the votes with a “plan B”. Why not work just as hard within the part apparatus to achieve the goals?.
Putting the Liberals in power is for sure not going to achieve their goals.
Saw in CTV yesterday that there is talk of a 40B deficit! That doesn’t sit too well with me.
Soccermom, with all the talk about the huge amount of spending coming up, I wonder if Harper isn’t looking for some kind of reaction from ordinary Canadians?
Perhaps he’s looking for them to say they don’t want this kind of massive debt for our children to have to deal with.
Obviously the Coalition wants huge spending to be in the budget, and then they’re going to try to criticize Harper for the size of the economic hole we’ll have dug ourselves into.
A no-win situation, as I see it.
“Ezra’s wasn’t a hissy fit but a well thought out response.”
It sure was – but all the naysayer commenters saying it was time for Harper to go. Do they really think that getting a new leader NOW is the right thing to do.
I know this is off topic, but I am so angry at these idiots. I am sure WK is just snickering.
Sorry CC – my comment is a bit ambiguous – I meant that Ezra’s comment was definitely well thought out.
“Obviously the Coalition wants huge spending to be in the budget, and then they’re going to try to criticize Harper for the size of the economic hole we’ll have dug ourselves into.”
Joanne, that’s exactly what I’m thinking. “And lo, the Liberals came forth on their trusty white steeds and rescued the country from the deep Mulroney-style deficit” or something to that effect.
I’m almost ready to give up being such a keen politics watcher. It’s-a-makin-me-crazy!!! There are fires to be put out here there and everywhere. I’m sick of it all…
Sorry, Joanne, I know this thread has gotten way out of whack, but people, you have got to see this (language warning!):
http://www.fivefeetoffury.com/:entry:fivefeet-2009-01-11-0000/
Is this my Canada?
Sorry, I guess Liz J. already brought up that video at Fury…
No worries, Soccermom.
Very sad commentary though.
Need a majority to do most of the things that Canadians would like to see done. This is the reality of the situation.
Don’t you believe the PM? Harper’s not happy with the 40billion deficit. He said in his interview with Mansbridge that this was not the budget he wanted to write, this is the Coalition’s budget.
Make no mistake the Coalition will wear this budget, each and every time there’s criticism of it.
If the Harper support base is already forgetting that, then he might as well go.
Falling for the divide and conquer trap is exactly what the Opposition would like among Conservative bloggers. Then WE become a sidebar in the news as proof that there’s division in Harper’s support.
Don’t play that game. Some posters seems to be already forgetting WHY our gov’t is having to go into deficit….period. It’s the ransom to the coup-initiators and until he says otherwise Iggy’s the captain of that Coalition ship.
Go back to the Common Law position that unions are illegal conspiracies in restraint of trade and suppress them permanently.
C.C., thanks for your post. I’m starting to calm down….a bit….LOL.
There’s so much crapola in the news lately; it gets to be a bit much. Time for me to take a little break (we’ll see if that happens!)
The Conservative base is solid, it’s the Liberals who are in big trouble with the continuing war between the Chretien and Martin factions with their proxies being Rae and Ignatieff.
We’ll get our majority in due time, remember that patience is a virtue.
Liberals lust for power for powers sake borders on psychopathic.
Back on topic.
Big unions will be their own undoing.
Unionizing mine workers prevented unscrupulous mine owners from cheating European mine workers out of millions of dollars.Unions got miners health care, working conditions and safety.
Walmart and Home depot aren’t unionized, they pay crap compared to profit.
Auto makers profits are obscene and so is CAW $60 an hour spa days and perpetual care.
What’s the answer?
Don’t play that game. Some posters seems to be already forgetting WHY our gov’t is having to go into deficit….period. It’s the ransom to the coup-initiators and until he says otherwise Iggy’s the captain of that Coalition ship.
Ransom. Exactly, CC.
Walmart and Home depot aren’t unionized, they pay crap compared to profit.
Auto makers profits are obscene and so is CAW $60 an hour spa days and perpetual care.
What’s the answer?
I don’t know what the answer is, JLK. Something in the middle, perhaps?
“Auto makers profits are obscene”
I suppose that’s why the big three are near bankruptcy?
Joanne, the three stooges coalition will never put Canada’s best interests before their own lust for power, ransom indeed and we are very lucky to have a PM and governing party that is so pragmatic.
You can’t run balanced budgets by giving EI to a 140,000 a year ‘seasonal’ workers, billion dollar CBC playground, paying artists to display their ‘arts and culture’ and supporting every little twit with a cause.
Alberta Girl @ January 11th, 2009 at 11:23 am,
Based on what I’ve seen from this Conservative Government, if a new conservative party were to start up under strictly more small-c fiscal parameters, and they ran in my riding, I have no doubt for a millisecond I would be voting for that party.
Soccermom,
I think Harper is planning a bone for us, but not the kind of bone we will enjoy, if you catch my meaning.
The union answer? Why make joining a union a condition of employment, in some places? Shouldn’t employees have a choice.
How about letting the people who pay union dues decide who they want to represent them among several possibilities?
If unions continue to be too expensive and ask for more, more, more without proof that their money, and our money in the case of CUPE, is money well spent.
“if a new conservative party were to start up under stictly more small-c fiscal parameters, and they ran in my riding, I have no doubt for a millisecond I would be voting for that party.” Tell me please Raphael what’s hard-right about what Harper’s doing or done thus far. Please tell us what the “small-c fiscal parameters are? Because according to everyone and their brother this budget is right up that alley.
You can always joing the right-of-centre Liberals who will break away from the Iggy led Coalition because it’s too far to the left.
Actually the whole right vs left stuff really annoyes me. Since when is fiscual management considered one or the other and just not good common sense?
RA – Bulls**t
Welcome to opposition.
Joanne, thanks for providing this discussion. Interesting reading here.
AG, surely you’ve realized by now that I’m not a fan of the party, but have chosen it as the least of all poor choices?
RA is Liberal troll, just ignore it.
Bruce, lol, that really takes the cake. A troll? Fine. An idiot? Fine. Strategically incorrect? Sure. A Liberal?
No thanks.
RA – then go and work for Warren and Iggy because your kind of “help” is definitely not needed right now.
Like I have said to several of the fair weather Tories today – Grow Up – it is obvious that you have not lived long enough to be as angry as I am to see something that has been worked for thrown away because a few selfish people can’t seem to understand that we are in a MINORITY GOVERNMENT.
I am sorry Joanne that I have chosen your blog to express how bl**dy angry I am over these idiots. Watch for headlines coming up shortly about how their is a move afoot to replace Harper by the hard right wing of his party.
I cannot do this anymore.
AG,
I’m not interested in “helping” a Conservative party that isn’t conservative. I don’t know how much more clear I can make that. So according to you and Brucie, wanting a Liberal party that pretends to be Conservative makes me a Liberal?
Sounds like wishful thinking on your part.
That should have read:
“wanting a Liberal party that pretends to be conservative be more conservative makes me a Liberal?”
RA, long walk, short pier. I’ve read posts of yours before, you’re an idiot yes.
What I find interesting is that the far-right elements of the Conservative party who are vying for a leadership that takes more seriously the freedoms of internet speech, may actually influence positively my want for a more conservative government. I find it interesting because I’m more centre-right. And yet I can’t convince “real conservatives” like Bruce to see this. My disappointment with the party has nothing to do with the HRC’s [like I care what Levant can or can't print], but with the fiscal direction of this government. If Bruce can live with a potential 3-5 years of record deficits and still call himself a conservative, that’s his crux to bear. Not mine.
Of course, unlike Bruce, I keep an open mind. We’ll see what happens.
Something a troll would say;
“What I find interesting is that the far-right elements of the Conservative party who are vying for a leadership’
Something an idiot would say;
“that’s his crux to bear. Not mine.”
I have no problem allowing Raphael express his opinion here. If the party is so weak as to be taken down by a few bloggers’ opinions, that it wasn’t that strong to begin with.
However, I don’t see a clear alternative to the Conservative Party for those who would like things to move more to the right.
And the fact is that any party that doesn’t approach the middle is doomed to be in opposition.
It’s important to distinguish between unions in the real economy and those that are monopoly government unions. (similar to the debates around what private CTV says versus what CBC says funded with MY money)
The unions’ leadership in both are parasites living off a host (GM or Queens Park) but unions have all but disappeared in the real economy. We are now hearing a death rattle and having to rescue unions in the automotive industry because the unionized competition has proven unions are not needed to produce cars.
In the government union sector it is harder for Darwin to do his work. Because the host for these parasites is Queens Park which has seemingly endless amounts of taxpayer confiscated cash to support them
So in the commercial world the host eventually dies off and so do the parasites with it. But in the artificially propped up world of government, the host lingers until there is a crisis. At some point the taxpayers decide that the politicians must be punished for their mismanagement of OUR money and then the host uses some RAID on these government union parasites. Have we the taxpayers/voters got the RAID can ready yet?
Let’s not call each other names please.
(Just a general request.)
Nomdeblog, that was an excellent analogy. Thank you.
Ralph..
You can not see the long game. No offence but you think you ride on a higher horse then everyone else IMHO..
I am a hardcore fiscal consevative, Milton Friedman rocks in my book…
“Corruption is just government intrusion into market efficiency in the form of regulation…”
But guess what, you can be a fiscal Conservative Disiple of Hayek,Burke and Friedman. But once you are in goverment everything changes.
You have to manage your expectations.
PS:I am not hating on you Ralph, love your blog, and love arguing with you…
RA, you’re just not making much sense. I don’t know a Conservative or conservative who would even entertain supporting the LPC or the Dippers in the present state of affairs in this country.
Nothing wrong with constructive criticism and even anger at some actions taken by our Conservative government, that’s normal. However not supporting them while they try to steer around the Leftist maze, MSM included, and the stacked deck in PS and Senate left by too many decades of Liberal rule, is not an option.
We are dealing with a global economic crisis that is going to call for actions which can’t be pegged as Conservative, Liberal or anything else, it’s called doing what’s necessary for survival.
Time to grow up and look at the big picture.
[...] this is angering many “real conservatives” who can see a splintering of the party as a means of giving the Liberal party a sure victory [...]
I appreciate your concerns of dividing a house that stands close to gaining a majority government [assuming the Ignatieff polls are bunko]. But I see no harm in grassroots reform to push through agendas of conservative nature. For instance, take the Plan-B party idea seriously for a moment. If such a party were to gain support to bring attention to the government areas where the party has lost it’s base support, it could be more helpful than hurtful. I don’t seriously think any new party would be very successful of managing a single issue, but perhaps it could be a small reminder of the expectations of some Conservative voters.
But I’ll leave it at that for now. Anyone who wants more, I’ve penned it at my blog.
Just would like to point out that not all unions are of the public service variety or big auto/big steel etc.Many unionS are the result of crappy work environments,bosses,wages etc and are not political beyond protecting their membership.I have belonged to a union all my life,held many executive positions and also supported as a card carrying member both the Reform Party & the CPC.Blaming & steriotyping unions and their membership might make wonderfull rants in the blame game,but they also work with the private sector for everyones benifit.My union membership has done more to enhance my life than any bloody government ever has and we are not all led by the buzz & sid parasites.
“My disappointment with the party has nothing to do with the HRC’s [like I care what Levant can or can't print], but with the fiscal direction of this government”
RA , as you can see above I am no fan of bailing out union leadership. I’m sure PMSH isn’t either. But when faced with the totally unpredictable move of Dion (the sponsor of the Clarity Act), then we are now in campaign war against a Coalition that has extreme government interventionist elements in it.
Most Canadians in the ROC can see what has taken place and outside Quebec PMSH has strong support.
RA talks about grassroots and I would suggest that is exactly what we need more of in the case of 13.1. PMSH has only so much political capital to burn. I didn’t even know what 13.1 was a year ago. Other than us political junkies how many voters would name that as their priority now?
As a conservative I don’t expect the government to do all my work for me. An issue like 13.1 needs a lot more grassroots work. It is a horrible piece of Orwellian crap. At the same time when looking at the near riots on Bloor Street and the hate there; I don’t think I want PMSH putting 13.1 out there right now as a burning issue.
Instead let’s help him at the grassroots level and if in a year he still won’t invest political capital in it, then maybe we should threaten the CPC with parking our allegiance elsewhere.
greyburr excellent points that don’t conflict with what I said. They aren’t parasites if they don’t need a host. If that is what the membership wants and the organization works without outside subsidy (GM) or direct taxpayer support (government unions) then again, they are not parasites. The railroads are a good example of responsible unions that work in the real world of competition.
NO THANKS “RA”! We want no more talk of splinters. We have no room for divisions in the new CPC.
There are still some former Progressive Conservative soreheads out there, some have retired, and at least one is a Liberal mouthpiece. Mr Harper united the Reform/Alliance and PC’s to be a strong Conservative force and we better not blow it by talking nonsense about splinter groups. STFU on that one please.
I can’t believe we’re even discussing this topic, it’s insane.
nomdeblog,
I don’t think it’s the time or place for a new party anyway [for the same reasons I didn't agree with the timing for the abortion issue], although I do like the idea that a splinter party is being discussed since it forms a grassroots wakeup call to the leadership. If it buzzes loud enough, the elephant might hear the fly.
Liz,
There are tons of Alliance/Reform voters waiting patiently for Harper to bring forward a conservative agenda. They won’t wait forever.
Liz J Says:
January 11th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
You are always so on point.
RA is just high on his horse, a redtory who tries to pass himself off as a fiscal conservative..IMHO
Consevatives are a big group of different idelogues. and we are not always going to be happy
But RA does have a great Conservative blog…
Allright guys. We’re having a frank discussion, so let’s have it. Am I “trying” to pass myself off as a fiscal conservative? Or am a merely a fiscal conservative [socially libertarian]?
What would be the acceptable deficit number you would be willing to bear from the CPoC before you stopped voting for them?
$20 Billion?
$30?
$40?
Would you support them if they started bringing Canada down into the dark depths from whence it sank where 20% of all federal tax receipts go to paying off interest and no principle?
At what point would you consider it a breach of your principles before you stopped accepting the Conservative compromise of propping up Canadian “entitlement” programs? As Joanne linked to other article, I think the system is due for inevitable collapse. We cannot perpetuate these entitlements. Social security will be destroyed by immigration. We hand out health care like candy, and our hospitals are full of people who never paid into it. Health care is now our greatest public expenditure, costing every man, woman, and child $5,000 each per annum.
Is this sustainable? Is a $40 billion deficit [temporary, they say] sustainable, just because we don’t want to cut federal spending programs on making the socialist welfare class feel better about themselves?
“although I do like the idea that a splinter party is being discussed since it forms a grassroots wakeup call to the leadership.”
RA and if you are honest, it is probably more fun than joining your CPC riding association and volunteering for all the crappy work to be done there so that you can try to influence the party machinery from the grassroots bottom up.
I’m assuming you are fairly young. Therefore you are exactly the kind of person the riding association needs because there are too many baby boomer white guys liked me who are risk averse and past their “best before date”.
nomdeblog,
Having recently settled in B.C., I’m pretty new to local scene here, so I haven’t been active politically. That could change in the future. As for being young, I don’t know how you folks would consider a 34-year old. On the job site I’m already the oldest guy. In politics I’m probably a young buck.
OK “kid” … hahaha
as soon as you’re settled in, fix BC because the Eastern baby boomers that caused this mess are going to move there and turn it into one big retirement home, demanding new knees with no wait time.
Raphael Alexander Says:
January 11th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
Liberal or Conservative we are going into deficit(at least the CPC is not using the EI fund to balance the budget). It is what it is, sucks to be the incumbent government…
Flaherty says he will have a plan out. I will wait and see Ralph.
Bottom line I trust PM Harper and Finace minster Jim Flahetry to do the right thing(thank god Flaherty is finace minster right now) to get us through this Global economic crisis.
To be frank, we are doing very good under PM Harper. Canada should be proud of are position
The sad thing is, as a hawk on fiscal matters I am not going to be to happy for the next couple years.
But I would rather Have PM Harper dealing with this market correction then dithers2.0
JDot,
I agree with waiting and seeing what the Jan 27 budget will be like, but I’m not particularly hopeful. It’s good to have a contingency plan in the event we get Liberal lite [isn't that what you all did with John Tory?]
And if we run planned structural deficits of several billions of dollars, I really fear for our children [well, mine anyway].
Raphael has just put up a great post of his own. Not sure if you guys noticed the pingback.
What’s really unfortunate is that RA’s managed to hijack the topic of discussion. Several folks have offered possible solutions to the union problem….seems we’ve been blinded by taking sides…again.
I asked RA questions that he’s chosen not to answer.
Harper’s not going anywhere any time soon. Unions will not be going anywhere either, because the rank anf file will NOT rock the boat with any vigour for changes.
“I asked RA questions that he’s chosen not to answer”
None of the fair weather Tories have answered me as to what they expected Harper to do in a Minority situation and what they think would have happened if he had?
Back to the unions – It has to be some sort of cult-like mentality that get union members so believing what their leaders are telling them. I think the members have been told that if they don’t fight they will not have jobs; which is so far from the truth.
C.C.,
First of all, I did not “hijack” this discussion. The discussion started in the first place with Joanne linking to my own blog, so I don’t see how joining the discussion here is much different than answering questions on my own blog.
Second, because you buried your reply to me in the scrum by starting with more talk about the unions, I didn’t notice it. So I’ll now reply.
“Tell me please Raphael what’s hard-right about what Harper’s doing or done thus far. Please tell us what the “small-c fiscal parameters are? Because according to everyone and their brother this budget is right up that alley.”
What is hard-right about what Harper has done? I don’t understand the question. He’s done nothing hard-right. When did I ever say he had?
As for small-c fiscal parameters, I would hardly call talk about running structural deficits for stimulus something that is “up that alley”.
“You can always joing the right-of-centre Liberals who will break away from the Iggy led Coalition because it’s too far to the left.”
Uh, I doubt it. But it’s also kind of difficult to speculate on a party that doesn’t exist yet.
“Actually the whole right vs left stuff really annoyes me. Since when is fiscual management considered one or the other and just not good common sense?”
It shouldn’t be partisan. Unfortunately when you have progressives who feel that fiscal policy should be based on increase in public spending, and socialist programs, I begin to worry. I do not want Harper advancing the socialist agenda unwittingly.
Interesting how everyone keeps talking like our economy is in a recession when technically it isn’t.
I found this which explains the difficulty on our government in deciding how to move forward in the future. Remember, naysaysers, this economic crisis is not of Canada’s making; plus we have a media who daily tell us how we are afraid for our future; we have unions and companies saying that if the government doesn’t give them money, they will close and jobs will be lost. It comes down to threats and the need for a “bad” story line.
http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0006709
“Recession, technically, 2 or more successive quarters of declines in real Gross Domestic Product, calculated by adjusting for price changes. For example, if GDP increases by 12% and the price level by 8%, real GDP has risen by 4%. Recessions are caused by a decline in one or more of the components of aggregate demand for goods and services – consumer expenditure, business-investment expenditure, government expenditure or exports. Investment expenditure is the most volatile component. In a recession the demand for the products of most businesses declines, causing a fall in sales, production and employment. Recessions can usually be halted by expansionary monetary policy, which involves increasing the money supply, thus reducing interest rates and making credit easier to obtain, or by expansionary FISCAL POLICY, which involves increased government expenditure. One reason for the reduced severity of recessions after WWII is the effect of built-in stabilizers (mechanisms that automatically increase government expenditure in downturns and reduce it in upturns), eg, unemployment insurance. A depression is a severe recession.
The last two recessions in Canada occurred in 1982 and 1990. The 1982 recession was particularly severe as GDP dropped by 6.7% over a period of 18 months. The most recent Canadian recession began in the second quarter of 1990 and over the next 12 months GDP fell by 3.2%. Some factors contributing to the economic slowdown leading to the 1990 recession included a slowdown in the US economy, the restrictive monetary policy of the BANK OF CANADA which was designed to fight INFLATION, and finally, the constraints on fiscal policy arising from the burden of interest payments on the federal debt. The recovery from this recession was unusually slow; there was almost no growth between mid-1991 and mid-1992. This slow recovery was export driven.
Author W.C. RIDDELL”
So I guess I would ask RA what other alternatives our government would have than “Recessions can usually be halted by expansionary monetary policy, which involves increasing the money supply, thus reducing interest rates and making credit easier to obtain, or by expansionary FISCAL POLICY, which involves increased government expenditure. “
Wiki also has an interesting read about the last recessions and how opposing governments make hay out of them. Of course, in Canada, we not only have opposing sides, we have the media – and now, we have factions in our own party. What fun!!!!
Sorry, forgot the link for the Wiki read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_1980s_recession
Late to this discussion but RA — you sure do have a bone to pick. Just go through my Harper government accomplishments on my header bar. Lots of items are conservative. For starters, there are the GST cuts. There is the registered savings plan. There is the $37 billion off the debt plus a tax back guarantee. And on and on and on.
The budget we are getting soon is just as C.C. said. It is a coalition budget. Otherwise, the gov’t would fall and we sure as hell can’t do anything in opposition.
No far right party would ever be elected in Canada. Never. Pragmatism is the word and centre, centre right. Which is right where the Conservatives are now. Apart from being in the middle of a major recession.
And, remember, far right policies in 1929 by Herbert Hoover in the U.S. and Bennett in Canada, put everyone in the worst depression we have ever known.
Learn from history. Got to run.
Ralph..
WTF, does John Tory have to do with PM Harper?
Alberta Girl and anyone else who visited Mesopotamia West, I just posted the following comment — in case it doesn’t get approved. This is appalling judgment and precisely what the Liberals want.
Here is what my comment said:
“This is so not helpful.
Governing means having to be pragmatic. If the PM does not do everything the rank and file want, then he is doing something right. He is governing all the people, not just those who voted for Conservative members.
That is how our system works.
Moreover, this type of internal fighting is exactly what the Liberals want us to be doing.
There is no Plan B my friend, only Plan A and that involves the best Prime Minister I have ever seen in my lifetime — one Stephen Harper who is respected internationally — and I of retirement age so I’ve seen a few.
The bottom line is that no party is perfect. All parties have to make compromises to govern. Moreover, no right wing party would ever be elected in Canada because it is a socialist country.
You may not like to hear that, but it is reality. Even the former Reform Party was not as far right as the U.S. Republican Party and they could do no better than official opposition and that took years.
Guaranteed: You keep up this nonsense and we go back to the future — remember the period 1993 to 2006.
Just keep remembering that.
Remember also what party solidarity means — even when you don’t always agree with decisions. That is what makes a long-term natural governing party.”
AG,
What other alternatives are there than expansionary monetary policy? Lots. “Stimulus” spending in public infrastructure, which is likely where this spending will go, is not a proven solution for the economy. Nor was George Bush’s gigantic handout last year. The prudent thing to do would be to stay the course, moderate minor deficits, but not plan structural ones, and see where and what can be trimmed. If this means the collapse of our social security, then perhaps social security wasn’t affordable to begin with. Personally I’ve love to lose the entire E.I. and C.P.P. programs, maintaining the money in the hands of Canadians.
So I guess I would ask RA what other alternatives our government would have than “Recessions can usually be halted by expansionary monetary policy, which involves increasing the money supply, thus reducing interest rates and making credit easier to obtain, or by expansionary FISCAL POLICY, which involves increased government expenditure. “
Sandy,
You likely know by now that I don’t think the feds have done much that entails wise fiscal conservatism. Cutting consumption taxes is something I was always against, and counter-flow to the Tories. The registered savings plan is great, but I actually liked the Liberal tax-free RESP plan better.
But the fact you’re supporting a coalition budget so that the Conservatives can run a coalition government under the banner of the CPoC doesn’t site well for me. I will not call a duck a goose when it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck.
JDot,
What does it have to do with John Tory? He was running a Liberal lite platform and you refused to vote for him. Harper is running a Liberal lite platform and you’re voting for him. I don’t understand the difference.
Raph, I think that’s a fair question. Let me suggest an answer.
#1.Harper won his own seat.
#2. Harper’s party formed the government.
#3. Harper has increased the plurality of his party.
Need I go on?
Joanne,
I didn’t mean to say they were twins separated at birth or anything
No problem, Raph. I guess the difference is that one is using incrementalism to achieve the goal of governing. The other is simply a clone of its rival party.
I’ll let you figure out which is which.
RA, are you referring to the Registered Educational Savings Plan as being better than the new plan. You have young children, and do you contribute to the RESP. It has been in effect for several years so I have knowledge of parents that went in full tilt years ago. Guess what, very few if any of those kids went on to university, most went into the trades or never finished high school. All they got out after all those years was their original contributions, plus interest. I advised my clients to put the money into term deposits instead and let them grow. Then, the money was there if needed for school, or apprenticeship programs or to just buy a car.
Don’t gamble your money on the thought your child might go to university in twelve years. What if he/she doesn’t. Of course there were parents who made their kids go to university just to get their money out, but they never finished or did anything with their education. Maybe that is where the student protestors come from, have to something while they are there. And, sad to say, not all those kids will finish school, not be involved in an accident or even be alive to go to school. I have had clients who had to face that loss.
If the program has changed over the years to allow a kid to go into a trade etc it might be ok.
Besides, with what is going on in universities today, who would want their kid to go.
Wow, outstanding commentary here today!! I’d like to say it all comes down to trust and I place my trust in PM Stephen Harper to “do the right thing!!” I believe he is wise and will stickhandle his way through the mess created by the global community (economic) and the coalition forces!! The priority is a Conservative majority government so permit the PM to continue governing with a minority government and demonstrate to Canadians, once again, how well he can govern this country!!
I haven’t had the time to visit “Mesopotamia West” but is it possible that it is not a Conservative blog but rather a coalition blog?? I know they do it individually, could they not do a “fake” blog as well?? Ok, I’m paranoid but the fact is I have no trust whatsoever in the coalition forces!!
Or, what about this: the old Conservative party members (Mulroney) are behind this?? I know that the Reform members and the “old party” members used to be at odds. As for myself, I switched from the Liberals to the Conservatives two elections ago because of Stephen Harper. I never voted for Mulroney and his gang, and never would. PM Harper is the type of politician that comes around once in several lifetimes!!
Joanne,
I know that people have used the word “incrementalism” before, but that would imply a stage of successive, but small, steps to conservative governance. In the end, I don’t think we’ve really seen that. We’ve seen some hodge podge conservatism, but it’s been offset by the negatives.
MaryT,
Yes, I’m referring to the RESP plan, and yes I do contribute $300 per month to it. But it’s flexible. It doesn’t have to be a University program. It can be any registered educational institution, including the most esoteric kind. This gives my children full choice of their careers.
The trades are an allright choice [I'm in the trades], but I’m rather hoping my kids will aspire to something more. My way of thinking is simple though. When I wanted to go to University, the money wasn’t there, and it was hard. I don’t want something as blasé as money to stop my children from having a proper education. They can decide what kind they like.
Ed,
Frank Hilliard of Mesopotamia West isn’t a Liberal plant. He’s pretty conservative, probably more than I am for that matter, and fairly strong on issues of immigration. He’s generally considered one of the more rightwing bloggers on the BT’s by the lefty Progressive Bloggers. You can usually tell how far right someone is by the amount of time Canadian Cynic spends bashing your blog.
Raphael Alexander Says:
January 11th, 2009 at 11:21 pm
Ed,
“Frank Hilliard of Mesopotamia West isn’t a Liberal plant. He’s pretty conservative, probably more than I am for that matter, and fairly strong on issues of immigration.”
Raphael, thank you. Maybe I am paranoid after all!!
Ed, great comment. I’m standing behind the PM and the CPC for the long haul. Sure I haven’t always agreed with everything they have said or done but overall I think they’re doing a pretty good job and just because you don’t see dramatic changes towards conservatism doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. They have already made small changes look at the Child care allowance instead of a massive nannny state style National Daycare program, paying down the debt, supporting the military etc.
These are just a few.
Go to Sandy’s site she has it all documented the accomplishments of this PM and this government.
Remember there is no such thing as perfect leader or goverment. They all make mistakes. No one is perfect! So non of us should demand perfection.
Has everyone forgotten the tough economic time we are in right now? Instead arguing and backbiting this is the time to work together to weather this storm we are in. This “We need to replace Harper or form a new party etc.” is just childish. We need act like grownups not little children who when we don’t get our way right away we threaten to pick up our toys and go home. That’s not to say that we should not be critical when it is warranted but also to look at the positive too.
These are unprecedented times we are in right now.
Let’s look further than our nose and look at the long term. We need to be help to the PM and the CPC government not a hinderance. They have enough of that with the MSM and the opposition already.
I agree frmgrl. Well said. We need to be reminded of this stuff from time to time!
I think because we were out of power for so damn long, we are chomping at the bit to change things quickly in this country. Well, change can’t happen that quickly when the country is tilted so far left. Settle in and incrementally work at it. OR let the bad guys get back in and we’ll have even more work to do when and if we get back in again…..
this is the best blog for open discussion
having said that moderation is necessary to prevent anger from erupting to a point where statements are made that cannot be retracted
for the most part this blog supports the Prime Minister of Canada Stephen Harper
if or when he no longer represents us we will vote him out
my feeling is he is a straight shooter and the best Prime Minister
he is held in great respect worldwide
fh
“None of the fair weather Tories have answered me as to what they expected Harper to do in a Minority situation and what they think would have happened if he had?”
I expect him to repeal Section 13.1. Done and dusted.
The “fair weather Tory” crack is hilarious, btw. Tories can bite me.
Has everyone forgotten the tough economic time we are in right now?
…These are unprecedented times we are in right now
Boy, that’s a really good point, Frmgrl.
Yes, everyone needs to sit back and take a deep breath. We are going through a world economic crisis that no one has seen before in recent times.
My personal hope is that anything spent as a stimulus has some kind of value for money oversight – especially regarding bailouts. I want to see conditions and close monitoring.
Just throwing money at problems is not a solution. That’s what the Liberals did.
Accountability is key.
this is the best blog for open discussion
Thanks, Fh. I’m glad you’re one of our regulars.
I expect him to repeal Section 13.1. Done and dusted.
I hope that is part of his long-term plan, Flea. Right now the economy is a more pressing issue, IMHO.
Also, this would have to be an issue that at least one other party would have to support.
Did anyone happen to read Edward Greenspan’s column in the Ottawa Sun today: “Academic argument”, “Should Israeli professors continue to lecture at Canadian Schools”?
No doubt Sid Ryan thinks he’s off the hook with a little apology for his recent despicable “proposal”.