I just finished listening to the Jeff Allan show and I can never remember a time that callers were so passionate and emotional. The vast majority were very much against the idea of a Coalition government, except the odd one like Andrew Telegdi who called in to applaud the idea.
Many Canadians are angry and upset. What can you do? Well, here’s something: You can join a rally! Get the details at Rally for Canada.
This is a turning point for Canada. Please don’t squander this opportunity to speak out for democracy.
It may be your last chance.
Stephen Taylor now has a post up – Announcing Rally for Canada.ca
* * * *
Update: If you can’t attend the rallies, you can still make phone calls and send emails.
!) You can contact Her Excellency the Right Honourable Michaëlle Jean here and express your concerns.
2) Contact your MP – especially if he or she is a member of the (current) opposition.
3) Write a letter to the editor : Globe, Star (contact info about 1/4 way down the page), Post.
You can contact the Sun at torsun.editor@sunmedia.ca
4) Talk to your friends and relatives. They may not be aware of what is happening.
5) Vote at news page polls – City News, CTV, Globe, Star, Sun. And please don’t forget the poll at Blue Like You!
* * * *
Afternoon Update : Graham Richardson mentioned that Harper is already being spoken of as a leader in the past tense.
You know, the thing that really burns me up here is the arrogance of the Liberal and NDP parties (with the cooperation of the Bloc), that they would just overturn the results of the October election at their whim, and not even ask the people what they want! I get no sense that they are polling the people. I get no feeling that they care. Jack Layton is grinning like a smug used-car salesman who just sold us the lemon of the century.
Coalition would be guided by all-star economic council – CTV:
A high-profile, four-person economic council would guide a Liberal-NDP coalition government on finance matters, CTV News has learned.
CTV’s Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife reported Monday that the council would comprise Frank McKenna, Paul Martin, John Manley and Roy Romanow. ..
The nightmare continues.
* * * *
Afternoon Update: Opposition set to present coalition to Governor-General – Globe.
Do you not understand how a Parliamentary democracy works?
The basic principle is MAJORITY RULE.
The Cons do not have a majority and Harper is not elected as a PM.
And sorry for you, but the Cons will not be the government come Dec. 8.
A new working legislative majority will operate.
All of this is legal and constitutional.
We don’t elect PMs or a government. We elect individual MPs who try to form a government with their fellow party members.
The opposition has united to do this; to create a democratic, working majority in Parliament.
Too bad — that is how a Parliamentary democracy works.
If you don’t get this, you are unfit to blog about Canadian politics.
Jo,did you read the latest post up at ctv? Titled:coalition being guided by all-star economic council.
Some interesting stuff about a few principled ‘dippers’ such as Peter Julian and Charlie Angus voicing their concerns,but Layton just wanting to ram this thing thru,and to hell with the consequences.Blatant grab for power for sure.
“Too bad — that is how a Parliamentary democracy works.”
I’ve always thought that the Westminster parliamentary system of government itself is a farce and not really democracy in the modern sense. I recall reading that since 1901, of all the new countries that have been formed since then, less than 10% of them chose this system of government, with the rest choosing a Republic type of government with a separate executive – to ensure checks and balances and to ensure than an executive can run a country without worrying about day to day BS and politicking in the legislative branch.
I hope this is the straw that finally causes us to do a “France-style” rewrite (see Degaulle’s unilateral creation of the Fifth Republic in the late 1950s) of our whole system of government.
“…Jo,did you read the latest post up at ctv? Titled:coalition being guided by all-star economic council.”
They certainly didn’t cobble this “all-star panel” together in just a few days. Further indication that the Liberals have been on board with this coup from the onset, despite their protestations.
Thanks for the tip, Sammy. Here’s the link.
It’s difficult keeping up with this story. Eveything is changing so fast.
We all know its legal Samb…my god where have you been? What’s disappointing is, how many Canadians think that this is ok! Stephen Harper made a huge mistake…why he thought it was ok to poke the Lib’s at this time right now was a Joe Clarke like error. Ok, he’s human…the Cons have withdrawn the unpleasant parts and yet the Coalition talks get become more intense…Harper caused this..he’s backtracked and yet the nonsense continue’s!! Honestly…if this is the legacy of the LPC then I weep for this country. The NDP and the Bloc I would expect nothing less from..but…I expect better from the Liberal party…I expected better from Stephen Harper…FIX IT Mr Harper…FIX IT Iggy!!
Samb is forgetting that there is no elected majority the coalition needs the help of a separtist party that represents only one of Canada’s Provinces Quebec
let Canadians hear from the other 9 Provinces
I would like to see an election called not this bully tactic of the NDP that received
18% of the vote
fh
fh,
You obviously don’t understand Canadian democracy or Parliamentary politics.
It doesn’t f’n matter where MPs and their votes come from.
It only matters that a working coalition has a MAJORITY of seats in Parliament.
Wake up. That is how it works in reality, not in your dream world of ‘geographical representation’.
Sure, let’s have a conversation about electoral reform — but don’t confuse that conversation with the reality of what’s happening now.
MAJORITY RULE IN PARLIAMENT is the fundamental principle of democratic governance in Canada.
Based on the last election, there is now a working coalition of MPs from across the country and from a variety of parties that are going to make Parliament work.
Again, blame your own leadership.
These nutzoids want to throw us into a deep deficit with a 30 billion dollar stimulus package.
What a bunch of freakin idiots.
Samb, or whatever the hell your name is. You are going to hear a roar from the west like you’ve never heard before if this goes down. So shut the hell up.
Samb it may not matter to you where MP’s come from but it matters to all Canadians
that you can count on
I hope the Liberals come to their senses
if they go through with this they may be the ones worrying
come election which I hope will be within the next few months
fh
What the coalition and people like samb do not understand is that they can claim all they want that this is legal and legitimate but citizens also have the right to disagree. If there was ever a time for protest and civil disobedience then this is it. Politicians need to reminded where there legitimacy comes from – the people. Write letters, phone MP’s and if it comes down to it then be willing to protest.
If there was ever a time for protest and civil disobedience then this is it. Politicians need to reminded where there legitimacy comes from – the people. Write letters, phone MP’s and if it comes down to it then be willing to protest.
Absolutely. We have to take a stand. Now.
I am sick of the media stating the Conservatives are blaming Prime Minister Stephen Harper
Parliament is dysfunctional if we don’t get a majority Prime Minister Harpers hands are tied by the opposition
we need an election
let’s show support send donations if you are maxed out send for 2009
this has nothing to do with the actions of the Conservative party
Canada’s economy is in the best shape of G7
They are going to make it work huh, SamB?
I would not want to give you odds on that..a troika of socialists, led by the lowest rated leader in decades, in charge of a party who just finished with the lowest numbers in the last election since confederation, aided by a man who will destroy our economy, propped up by a traitorous, ex communist separatist.
This is obviously not Harper’s fault because the tapes prove Layton had a deal with the Bloc long before the fiscal update came out. Harper could have promised us a million dollars each deposited in our bank accounts, and Layton still would have pulled the plug. It is not about the economy: it is about power. Layton wants its. It’s the preciousssss…
There is nothing illegitimate about what is happening unless you think it is illegitimate for the majority of ridings in Canada to have elected non-CPC MPs!
C’mon folks — this is basic logic.
Maybe you voted for a Conservative candidate who won and became an MP.
But a majority of Canadians voted otherwise and elected non-CP MPs to Parliament.
These MPs, who are all legitimate representatives of the people, are establishing a legal, democratic working majority.
Tough luck — that is how our democracy works. Can the BS about civil disobedience and coup d’etats…
Just watched graham Richardson on ctv,and his close to orgasmic glee over all this.NO ONE in the msm is asking tough questions on the bloc’s part in this,there are a million questions that need answers and we the public aren’t getting them.
take a hard look at the tsx this am…lost all gains made over the last week..DOWN over 700 points just now!these fools are going to ruin an already fragile economy,and all they care about is power for the sake of power.Unbelievable.
I am amazed at the stupidity of many Canadians who are applauding a Coalition which would grant extreme power to the BQ and provoke a constitutional crisis!
The Liberals and NDP have completely abandoned the good of Canada , and no matter which way this goes , it will exacerbate the current financial situation.
Dion , Layton or whoever conceived this madness is truly out of their mind , because even if they usurp power , the financial markets will view the coalition with concern. The markets will react accordingly and eventually Joe Canadian will feel it. When that happens the Coalition will get the blame.
If the Coalition backs down , PM Harper will blame any market downturn on the Coalition “spooking” the markets.
For the Liberals and the NDP it is a lose lose situation , but they don’t seem to have the common sense to understand the implications … they are interested only in a power grab.
BTW. I listened to Rex Murphy last night ( … but finally had to turn it off ) , Caller after caller seemed to be a Liberal voter who was just angry that the Liberals lost. Only one caller mentioned the abomination of the BQ holding power or the financial impact to Canadians … it was like they assumed Canada was an island of stability immune to market forces
Excellent work Blue!
Have they given a time for the rallies yet? – I know its Dec.6 – but what time am – pm ?? Didn’t see it on the notice…
samb, if the opposition parties truly believe that they have the support of the voters then they would form a coalition, draw up a platform and fight an election. I suspect that many Liberals would rather eat nails than be in bed with the NDP and Bloc.
Politicians are our employees not our rulers. Citizens have every right to protest and engage in civil disobedience. Then again maybe the first law by the coalition be to take away another one of our basic rights. Let us hope that the GG has the wisdom to refer the legitimacy of this coalition to the voters. I’ve written her and I suggest everyone who opposes this coalition does as well. A short respectful note that outlines your concerns.
“can the bs about civil disobedience”
Well, since you’re planning on taking away our right to an elected government, one would assume it wouldn’t be a huge leap to take away our right to protest as well. Not a big stretch for you guys, hey?
I mean just because we won’t be the usual multiple-pierced purple hair latte sipper protestors, doesn’t mean we don’t have that right.
Joanne,
On my talk radio show, I have just heard that the coalition have sent out supporters to the blogs, phone call shows etc to disrupt the nature of the conversations. By looking a some of the postings that could be happening here.
They are also recommending writing the big 3, newspapers, and joining the facebook sites.
Have they given a time for the rallies yet? – I know its Dec.6 – but what time am – pm ?? Didn’t see it on the notice…
Agent Smith, my guess is that you will be contacted by email when things get finalized. Stephen Taylor has launched the site so he would likely have more info.
There is no constitutional crisis — that is a figment of the Conservative imagination.
We have a Parliamentary system, which allows for and encourages this type of transition, based on many historical precedents.
We just had an election.
We voted and elected MPs.
These MPs are making a majority in Parliament.
There is no appetite for an election.
The people just voted, stop crying. We have MPs who are doing their job — making Parliament work.
Too bad, but sometimes you lose.
Hmmmm,maybe there is a grand plan by PMSH after all!Just watched David Mitchell from Queens U. on cbc re this mess,and he states that historically,”coalitions usually end up decimating the parties involved”,and that there will be unforseen consequences.Soooo,maybe this will be the final nail in the Lib.party.
BTW,our local call-in talk radio show this am (cjob) had only 1 caller in support of this deal.There was a lady called in,she was in Judy Washa-washingmachine’s riding..had voted ndp,and was LIVID!Said she wants an election and won’t be voting for Judy this time.Good to know some common sense prevails.
“Judy Washa-washingmachine”
Thanks Sammy, I needed a good laugh today.
Samb, no YOU guys lost, you just have not accepted it. And this goes back to January 2006, idiot. Now bugger off.
ah, yes, we all read in the “Layton” kitchen table transcript how it was going to all work, send out trolls to meetings of environuts, activists, unions, to make it look by all appearances that the politician in charge of pulling the strings just happened to be there, all the while the rotters are pulling the strings like the puppet masters of the provincial left who back whisper sweet nothings in the ears of same, and let them do the grunt work.
Same bunch of losers set to the blogs also by the looks of things.
Sidewinders all.
“too bad, but sometimes you lose”
True, and the losers under this patchwork quilt of losers are the Canadian people who the coalition of egos has just rendered mute.
The Liberals/NDP in bed with the Bloc have essentially thumbed their noses at each and every Canadian who took time to vote on Oct. 14th.
This isn’t the Canada I want.
Thanks Sammy for Judy washa-washamachine line, we all need to smile here. As a resident of Manitoba I feel ashamed of the NDP from our provence that part of this plan. SHAME, SHAME.
Samb @ December 1st, 2008 at 11:24 am:
“Too bad — that is how a Parliamentary democracy works.
If you don’t get this, you are unfit to blog about Canadian politics.”
Ahem, if anyone needs a few lessons, may I suggest it is you?
A few facts for you:
1963: Liberal minority with 41.52%
1965: Liberal minority with 40.18%
*1972: Liberal minority with 38.42%* – 61.58% did not vote Liberal
1974: Liberal majority with 43.15%
1980: Liberal majority with 43.15%
1993: Liberal majority with 41.24%
*1997: Liberal majority with 38.46%* – 61.54% did not vote Liberal
2000: Liberal majority with 40.85%
*2004: Liberal minority with 36.73%* – 63.27% did not vote Liberal
2006: Conservative minority with 36.27%
2008: Conservative minority with 37.65%
I would call your attention in particular to the years with asterisks. No one used the specious argument that the party in power had not garnered a MAJORITY because a higher percentage had not voted for the Liberal party, did they?
Maybe your idea of majority is like the one prevailing in Cuba or in Saddam Hussein’s Iraq, but here forming government means whoever garners the most seats. Your friends DID NOT, according to the will of the Canadian people in the last election.
If they are convinced the people are behind them, let them ask THE PEOPLE in a new election.
Call a spade a spade: your friends are power-hungry and they don’t give a damn who gets hurt in the process, as long as they hold the reins of power.
Samb says:
“There is no appetite for an election.”
HOW WRONG YOU ARE…BRING IT ON!
USELESS Dosanjh,was on my talk radio,ranting his putrid propaganda..oh my how he rants! I tried to get on to remind him how he almost lost. Loser!
Joanne, I need you to answer me one question and then I will shut up. How is it worse to have a group of parties, representing 62% of voters in government (or in the BQ’s case not even in government but supporting it as it did on many occasions the Conservatives over the last two years), than a single party representing 37%?
Maybe we need to flood Mike Duffy with emails before his show today and tell him that all Canadians need an election before this coalition overthrows the government we elected.
“We have a Parliamentary system, which allows for and encourages this type of transition, based on many historical precedents.”
Since you’re such a powerhouse of facts, I would welcome your citing the “many historical precedents.”
Lovely comeback, Gabby. And it didn’t even get stuck in the filter.
I respectfully suggest that we’ve giving this ‘samb’ person WAY more air time ..er … blog time than he/she deserves. just repeating dumb-ass ideas to a dumb-ass attempt to overthrow the legitimate Government of Canada. and I might add, without giving them a chance to bring in the FIRST Budget of this Parliament.
Totally irresponsible.
If this thing goes down, and a coalition is formed, the non-political “Irenes” of the world who just called into CP-24 Toronto, … mad as hell at the prospect, will ensure an overwhelming majority for the Conservatives in the next federal election. Mark my words.
and btw, if it’s true that John Manley is associating himself with this attempted overthrow of the ELECTED Government, then my respect for this man just went into the toilet! et tu John?
Unelected partisan retired politicians are going to manage the economy of this country! This is beyond outrage. Has this country lost its mind?
There are more than a few CPC supporters directing their anger at PMSH for this situation; this is not the time for internal dissent, stand up for the duly elected government and democracy.
I think its time to investigate whether or not we can withhold our federal taxes until we have duly elected representation.
How is it worse to have a group of parties, representing 62% of voters in government (or in the BQ’s case not even in government but supporting it as it did on many occasions the Conservatives over the last two years), than a single party representing 37%?
Greg, if you’re seriously asking that question, then what do you think about doing that all the time? i.e. after every election, we let a coalition of parties that didn’t like the result get together and form their own government?
Greg, the three opposition parties had separate leaders and separate platforms and most importantly separate supporters. You cannot simply add up the votes of the three parties. How many of those opposition supporters would change their vote if they knew their votes would be handed by their leaders to people like the Bloc or NDP? A coalition is fine but they must present themselves to be judged by the voters. They Libs may find that their voters are not supporters of the separatist’s or socialist’s agenda.
from Duff just now…the deal is DONE.Forgive them Lord,they know not what they do! Dion will be Pm..s’cuse me..I gotta go puke,then to bed for the next 2 years.
Samb has been VERY busy. He or she just left a comment at Cotm — which I have deleted. I am not giving these people a soap box.
Constitutional expert just said that the PM ONLY asks the GG, to dissolve parliament. The opposition does NOT go to her. Confirming what we all have been saying now for days.
Go to the rally site posted above!
Gabby — Thanks for the stats. I just posted them on Cotm. Where did you find them? I would like to add a link.
Greg, if you’re seriously asking that question, then what do you think about doing that all the time? i.e. after every election, we let a coalition of parties that didn’t like the result get together and form their own government?
If you had worded that slightly differently, I would say I am for it. I want electoral reform and PR, so coalition building after elections (or before) would be the norm. It is common all over the world.
Bec said “Constitutional expert just said that the PM ONLY asks the GG, to dissolve parliament. The opposition does NOT go to her. Confirming what we all have been saying now for days.”
That seems like the best solution since only she can prorogue. However, although I am not a constitutional expert, no one can assume what the GG will do or say. She could also legally refuse to dissolve parliament and call upon the coalition to try to govern for a period. And, of course, other precedents can be set.
The long and short of it is that no one really knows what can happen. The worse thing is I am not sure the GG can say anything publicly. It would be great, for example, if she said, “if the PM comes and asks me to dissolve parliament, I will not ask the coalition to govern. I will call an election.”
Time will tell. Someone said yesterday, “we live in interesting times.” I’d rather things be back to boring.
Samb talks about parliamentry tradition.
Ok, well, let’s look at the tradition. Only once in Canadian federal history has a coalition been given a chance to govern by the GG. That coalition lasted one week. And the defeated party never had the confidence of the house at any time.
For all intensive purposes, Stephen Harper has had the confidence of the house since January 2006, and in fact the confidence of the house last week when the throne speech passed.
All other times a minority government has been defeated, an election has been called. Which is what should occur this time.
That’s if you really want to go by tradition Samb.
A comment to Greg. One thing we are learning from this debacle is to NEVER consider PR. Two countries I know who have it regret ever doing it — Italy and Israel members of parliament are perpetually complaining about the process. They are always in election campaign mode and can never get anything, even remotely controversial, done.
Someone said yesterday, “we live in interesting times.” I’d rather things be back to boring.
Thanks for the laugh, Sandy. I needed that.
Sandy @ December 1st, 2008 at 1:42 pm
“Gabby — Thanks for the stats. I just posted them on Cotm. Where did you find them? I would like to add a link.”
My pleasure, Sandy. I worked from this Wiki site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_federal_general_elections
I am looking for a copy of the ENTIRE letter the opposition is using as an example of then-opposition Leader Stephen Harper wanting to form a coalition.
That “intrepid reporter” Kady O’Malley cited an excerpt on her blog, using it as proof that Stephen Harper was ready to do the same thing.
I would like to read the ENTIRE letter, so if anyone has a link, please ….
Canadians take democracy as a given , and assume it will always be so , however , if one stands back from the screaming and yelling , there is a fundamental issue with the Coalition maneuvering that is not being addressed … democracy !
Unless anyone forgot , there was a democratic election , which like it or not the Conservatives won using the same rules as have applied since Confederation.
An unelected Coalition is a first step in diminishing Canadian democracy . Those who wish for such a coalition should remember how other countries quietly slipped into the brink and think hard and long about what is happening in Ottawa.
That “intrepid reporter” Kady O’Malley cited an excerpt on her blog, using it as proof that Stephen Harper was ready to do the same thing.”
Right. Of course Kady seems to have overlooked the fact that when Martin was defeated we went to an election, not a coalition.
So if Kady wants to cite things Harper did then, lets see her comment on these points.
1. Martin cancelled ALL opposition days.
2. Martin and the Liberal’s ignored lost votes of confidence.
3. Martin went on national television and pleaded for his job.
4. Martin tried to bribe Canadian’s with billion$ in tax cuts to make the opposition look mean spirited for defeatimg him.
So I guess Kady will now endorse Harper doing any or all of the above. After all Liberal’s did it first, right Kady?
Just watching QP right now, and cannot help but notice the naked lust for power written on the face of some Liberal MPs when Dion got up to ask his questions. In particular, Lib. Brian Murphy (?), sitting behind Lib. Anita Neville.
An attack on democracy, removing party funding!
Yeah, but removing the validity of votes cast 7 weeks ago is not, right?
I am looking for a copy of the ENTIRE letter the opposition is using as an example of then-opposition Leader Stephen Harper wanting to form a coalition.
Gabby, Harper seems to have addressed this just a few minutes ago. Didn’t quite get what he was saying, but we can read it on Hansard later.
Mr. Harper looks like he needs some sleep. Got to feel sorry for him in QP this afternoon.
Paulsstuff @ December 1st, 2008 at 2:19 pm, selective memory is rampant among our members of the Press Gallery as well as the little lady who fashions herself ITQ.
think hard and long about what is happening in Ottawa
It’s a Bolshevik takeover.
While the coalition may be constitutional it’s clearly not democratic. The electorate have not had a chance to vote on the backroom deals made amongst the opposition parties, the electorate hasn’t had a chance to vote on the unknown platform of the coalition, plus we haven’t had the opportunity to vote on whether or not we agree to a panel of socialist “economists” guiding this country’s economy.
In fact, the above is exactly why we shouldn’t have PR. All governments formed under PR will consist of platforms and backroom deals that the electorate will not have had a chance to scrutinize.
“Gabby, Harper seems to have addressed this just a few minutes ago. Didn’t quite get what he was saying, but we can read it on Hansard later.”
Yes, my point is that the quote used by the opposition – aided and abetted by “Intrepid Reporter” – is being taken out of context, as usual, when it comes to anything Mr. Harper has ever said or written.
What the opposition is trying to do is to say the PM himself was ready to enter into a coalition with the Bloc when he was in opposition, and now he’s saying it’s not the right thing to do for the Libs & the NDP to get in bed with the Bloc.
But, as I posted over at trusty Tory’s blog yesterday:
http://www.cbc.ca/sunday/harper.html
“Well I’ve said *I would not form a coalition under any circumstances* – I said that in the election campaign, nothing changes.”
That was then-opposition Leader Stephen Harper being interviewed by the CBC’s Evan Solomon (date unknown) saying *I would not form a coalition under any circumstances*
That’s why I want to read a copy of the letter to be able to show the opposition to be the liars that they are.
Sorry – this is REALLY getting to me.
the coalition keep referring to the failure of the Prime Minister to stimulate
the Canadian economy
today we see that the Canadian economy grew by 0.3%
the coalition keep stating that President George Bush is taking action
USA economy did not grow it is minus 0.5%
My choice would be Prime Minister Harper the steps he has taken and plans to take are working
fh
Oh crap I can’t make it to the rally! Any day but Saturday… are there any others?
I can’t believe my country could actually be run by tyrants! They are willing to literally destroy democracy everything our forefathers fought for and give Canada to Giles Duceppe! Am I in Canada or Burma? I think the whole country fell down Alice’s rabbit hole! WE VOTED!!! Did I vote in vain?
These monsters are willing to turn dictator and throw Canada away for what? Greed? How do they sleep!
I have a hard time understanding how the media in this country can blatantly lie about what is happening with our economy. Calling Harper a liar; saying this is his fault; they are giddy with glee at what has happened. Even MD was positively beaming with pride at what has happened. None of them seem to see this as an affront to the democratic will of those voters that installed the Tories six short weeks ago.
I fear the country has gone mad. As I said earlier, I will do everything in my power to leave this thing that used to be a country.
Wouldn’t it be interesting if the GG said… “Have another election, Coalition versus Conservatives, winner take all.. get it done before Christmas”… kind of a mini referendum.
I would accept any outcome from that rather than the constitutional hijacking masterminded by the three musketeers.
Outraged Westerner…
good luck for Mr Harper, and his party, we do not need this coaltion, period
Do not give up
pierre m de ruelle
Ile des soeurs
Nontreal
h3e 1c4
qc Canada
Stan, I think the idea of a referendum would be brilliant.
Pierre thanks so much for letting us know how you feel. It’s heartening to hear from Canadians in Quebec who are equally appalled by this development.
A referendum is the way to go. Let the people decide. What is happening is a travesty of justice. We cannot accept this!!
Spoiler Alert. Canadians held an election in October. The Conservatives won. Let them govern. The sneaking, sniveling backdoor tactics being used by the coalition are more then disgusting, frankly they are sick.Something you would expect from a third world country, not here. A trio of Devils, Useless Leftist, Dion, Sicko socialist,Layton, Separtist, tear the country apart Duceppe. Wake up Canada and just say no to the trio of devils.