680 News has the story!
VANCOUVER, B.C. – A Vancouver Conservative candidate who lost a federal election recount last week is appealing the result in court.
Wai Young lost the judicial recount to Vancouver South incumbent Liberal Ujjal Dosanjh by just 22 votes on Friday but Conservative party official Ray Leitch says she’s unhappy that not all the ballot boxes were rechecked in the process.
Leitch says a lawyer for Young will appear Thursday in a B.C. Supreme Court to ask a judge to check every vote cast.
The Elections Act gives the judge supervising the recount the option of counting all the valid votes, plus spoiled and rejected ballots, or only those from a sampling of ballot boxes.
In the Vancouver South recount B.C. Supreme Court Associate Chief Justice Patrick Dohm opted to recount votes from 28 out of 184 ballot boxes…
…Leitch says that all the ballot boxes should be reopened and their votes counted, noting that a full recount Friday in a Quebec riding overturned a Bloc Quebecois victory in favour of the Liberal challenger.
The recount in Vancouver South found four vote changes in 22 of the 28 boxes that were opened, raising the possibility of 30 or more vote changes in the unopened boxes, Leitch says.
He conceded getting Dohm to change his mind was a long shot …
Background on this story here.
We’re behind you Wai, 100%.
The hope we now have is that there is still a chance for democracy to prevail – even in Canada.
Update: Story now confirmed at CKNX.
Macleans – B.C. Conservative appealing election recount loss in court.
Now the STAR – This is exactly what we were after: MSM getting the story out there. This is a great day.
Good work, people!
The Wai Young story is now the headlines at National Newswatch.
And, when even Big City Lib is interested in hearing ‘the reasoning behind the judge’s decision’, you know something just ain’t right.
Yup. This is a stinker, folks.
* * * *
Tuesday Update : Kady has an update (H/T to Jad) – UPDATED: Vancouver South Recount – Okay, I give up. What the heck is going on out there?
I always thought a recount was a recount. Doing it this way is like saying we are only going to count 10% of the polling stations and multiply the result by 10 to get the final figure. Who does this judge think he is to circumvent democracy like this. Any bets he was appointed by Liberals, votes Liberal, and financially supports Liberals. (as well as supporting them through recounting of ballots)
Let`s see, an extra 11 points for Wai from 28 ballot boxes and they don`t want to open the other 156?
Wonder why?
How do we get them to do a recount. Petition or something? Emails?
They are not supposed to get Dohm to change his mind. They are supposed to apply to another judge to order Dohm to comply with the requirements of the Elections Act regarding recounts. There is nothing in the Election Act that specifically allows a judge to suspend a recount part way through. While the Act does not specify that all valid ballots must be counted once a count is started, several different sections seem to imply they should be. This is an example of something that the writers of the legislation probably never thought would be a problem, so they never put a clause in covering this specific situation.
I would say that public pressure must come to bear here. Of course, the judge might just dig his heels in, but if he does he’ll have to live with this.
The ideal thing would be for him to find a way to ’save face’ and then grant the recount.
Are the conservatives paying her legal fees or is she on her own. Party better pay. Maybe the lawyer is pro bono. If she is on her own, where can one send financial help or is that allowed. Would the costs be part of election expenses she would be reinbursed for.
She if fighting for all of us. Any word on Martin’s recount yet.
If not for blogs would this have been made public.
Well Swift, what you say contradicts the story, but we’ll see what happens. I’m just happy that Wai Young has decided to do this.
Just like Jennifer Wright! I love it.
She if fighting for all of us.
Amen to that. She is fighting for democracy and nothing less.
Excellent! I can hardly wait for Thursday.
I’m glad Wai is appealing. I wish her all the best.
As far as her legal fees, someone should find out how they’re being taking care of. If they are not being covered by the party or the lawyer is not working pro-bono maybe we should set up something so that we can all chip in and help her out.
It would be a small price to pay for democracy, wouldn’t you say?
Keep on blogging and pressuring Elections Canada. We need to support Wai Young as much as possible. She must be exhausted by this whole ordeal.
Way to go Joanne. This is brilliant news!
My niece, attending her first year college (VAN ISL) was not permitted to vote. Nor were 4 of her Alberta roomies.
She had passport,DL,health care, and landlord to vouch for her. She was P***ed. No sympathy from Profs.
Unbelievable the stories!All because of this great reporting from you and the others!
Go WAI Go! She is becoming a folk hero! HA
Excellent! Full steam ahead!
I can’t imagine the judge or judges opposing a recount. What’s the problem. Just frigging count all the boxes and be done with it. This issue is very serious and should be dealt with forthwith. Just do it.
If Dohm refuses to budge I would question his capacity to continue sitting as a judge. We shall see on Thursday.
I am not too disappointed in Martin winning, if true. He did present a motion to get rid of Sec 13 of the HRC. And he once was a conservative, and will vote with us on some bills.
Congrats Joanne!Good work! I wonder what the CPC members in her riding have been doing for the past few days? The blogs have a great impact but I would like to think there was some hard work going in that area, or are the CPC restricted in procedure? Wonder when we will hear from PMSH on this.
Blue Like You gets results!
I have a link to CTV just so I can make comparisons: what the blogs cover vs. the stories on CTV.
It’s ridiculous!They still haven’t picked this up!
Any word on Dr. Keith Martin’s recount?
Joanne, pat yourself on the back for all of us who watched this unfold, you rock lady!
Now, let a full recount determine the winner, Liberal or Conservative, it doesn’t matter, what matters is that democracy is upheld.
Joanne, shame on you for believing everything you read in the MSM. Look up the legislation: The Canada Elections Act.
Part 14 Judicial Recounts
Sections 311 and 312
From
312. (1) After hearing the judge complained of and any other parties, the judge to whom the application was made or another judge of the same court
(a) shall make an order dismissing the application or ordering the judge in default to comply with the requirements of this Act in respect of the recount; and
(b) may make an order with respect to costs.
Judge to obey order
(2) A judge found to be in default shall without delay comply with an order made under subsection (1).
Clearly the judge who is complained about is not the one to which the complaint is made. If the lawyers are complaining to Dohm, we need new lawyers.
Hunter, everyone here should take credit, and all the bloggers who joined in like Sandy, and you Hunter, and Conservative Reporter, and SDA, and JR and so many others including Dr. Dawg and Saskboy.
Well, Wai is launching the appeal and we need to support her in any way we can. She is doing this for all of us.
Clearly the judge who is complained about is not the one to which the complaint is made. If the lawyers are complaining to Dohm, we need new lawyers.
I’m not doubting you, Swift. I’m just finding the news report confusing. Hopefully some more from MSM will jump on this finally, and we’ll start getting more info.
I am not too disappointed in Martin winning, if true. He did present a motion to get rid of Sec 13 of the HRC. And he once was a conservative, and will vote with us on some bills.
Mary T, I agree. I truly admire Keith Martin for his stand on Sec 13.
If I was making the application,I would select justice Wilson, who is conducting the recount of Keith Martin’s victory. It is obvious that he appreciates the importance of the procedure. Not only has he made arrangements for the recount to be made according to the legislation, he is even allowing the press to witness it. Now if we could only trust the press to give a fair and accurate report, peoples trust in the system might start to be restored.
Agreed about Dr. Martin. And he did start out as a Reformer.Just hope ALL the ballots are counted!
Have to say I really appreciate Dr Dawg’s comment on this issue, here and at Macleans. You know it is an important worthy cause for democracy when agreement crosses over partisan lines.
That has been one of your goals with this blog right Joanne?
If I can I would like to make a valid point, albeit politically incorrect to do so.
In a riding such as Vancouver South, certain polls will reflect a high Asian population, and others will reflect a high Indo-Canadian population. Much like Toronto has it’s own Chinatown, Grrek area of twon, Italian, what have you, so does Vancouver.
I think it would be safe to say that Wai would draw quite a few votes from the Asian community, as would Dosanjjh from the Indo-Canadian community.
For this reason alone it should have been imperative of the judge to do a full and proper recount to reflect the full dynamic of the ethnicities and their population concentrations in the riding.
Have to say I really appreciate Dr Dawg’s comment on this issue, here and at Macleans. You know it is an important worthy cause for democracy when agreement crosses over partisan lines.
That has been one of your goals with this blog right Joanne?
That’s true, Bluetech. I’ve always welcomed discussion across the political spectrum as long as it is respectful.
Dr. Dawg and Saskboy have been very supportive of this issue. They’ve even had to endure some flack from people needling them for being ‘Tory-lovers’ and stuff, but they didn’t let it stop them from seeing the injustice.
Today was a good day.
Paul, your comment may have been politically-incorrect, but it is probably spot-on.
Swift, good point about Justice Wilson. Does anyone know who appoints a particular judge to a recount?
Happy that the fight continues but the post from Bec is very interesting. As I have previously posted university/college students can vote in the riding that they reside in at election time. {son voted for Braid..student at WLU} sounds like the poll was wrong with Bec’s students,this matters! Another issuse to be explored with Election Canada and staff.
Great news Joanne, A full recount would restore some faith to Canadians who expect their vote to be counted. This is not about partison politics. Anything but a full recount tarnishes our reputation as a fair and honest democracy. All Canadians should unite to demand that these votes all be counted. If our votes do not count then all Canadians loose.
Now let us hope that our Justice system demonstrates to Canadians that every vote is worth counting.
Who was judge Dohm appointed by – the Liberals ?.
This will be a travesty of justice if Wai Young is
denied a full and complete recount. It’s time for the hierarchy of the CPC to voice their intentions on this outrageous situation.
Janet, good point about Bec’s complaint. It is a very valid concern.
Bec, perhaps you might suggest to your niece to consider getting in touch with a local MP of the party she was planning to support. This would be very motivating for the party to pursue with Elections Canada.
Who was judge Dohm appointed by – the Liberals ?.
Big Mac, that is a question I still don’t have an answer to. How did Judge Dohm come to be the Justice of that particular recount? I would really like to know how that works. Is a certain judge requested or appointed?
Yes, I did get her on that as well as her parents. My larger concern was the reaction from the Professor.
This was completely dismissed by that authority figure. There are numerous stories out there but will people complain? This could explain a big portion of the apathy.
In answer to a question in this thread a bit ago, according to National Newswatch the Conservative candidate who asked for the recount (keith martin one) had it stopped.
Joanne,
You did a Hell of a job. You can scratch this as your victory over the Court Party of Canada.
Now we have to fight for complete re-count at Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca riding. If Troy DeSouza does not want to be an MP anymore he might resign after the recount is done but we should not tolerate such blatant manipulation as took place tonight.
If BC Court of Appeals needs a precedent of stopped re-count to save the face of the judge they can find it in their law books and not create precedent after the fact.
That is an outrage.
Wow, I’m tuning in to great news here! (except for Keith Martin winning AGAIN)
But I have one question: What if anything, has our old pal Ujjal had to say about this? If he’s any sort of man, he should be pushing for a full recount as well.
Soccermom says, “If he’s any sort of man, he should be pushing for a recount as well”
Yes, yes, yes, I could not agree with you more.With it so close especially. There just seems to be a piece of a puzzle missing. None of the others are like this one.
Funniest outcome would be if Keith Martin walked into House of Commons and said I am convinced that Troy DeSouza has won the popular vote in my riding but since he quit in Court than all I can do to correct his mistake is to move to Conservative benches.
Congratulations, Joanne et al. for driving this issue. Hopefully a full recount will take place.
What a hot topic on several blogs. Today I had 167 comments in my IN box. My eyes are blurred from reading, don’t know how you editors keep up, we owe you all a huge thank you.
I think this topic has generated more comments in a short time than any other. And, the majority of them have been very thought provoking.
Karol at 10:42 pm – Thanks, but it wasn’t my victory at all. This was a combination of efforts from all sides. You brought the original article to my attention and I was outraged and wrote about it, then many bloggers joined in, then some media, and the whole thing eventually developed a life of it’s own.
Now we have to fight for complete re-count at Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca riding.
Karol, I completely disagree with you there. That recount was halted by DeSouza; not by the judge. He saw that the margin was widening and stopped the recount. It is a totally different situation.
All parties handled that one responsibly and I congratulate Keith Martin on his victory.
[...] there was a lot of speculation in comments about whether a new judge would be sought by the CPC, but it would appear from the Sun article that [...]
Update from Kady. If she’s right, most of the pickup for Wai Young came from the ballots originally disputed, but still no reason to halt the recount. And look at the difference between the original count and the one verified by the returning officer.
UPDATE: Okay, according to someone who was in the room – I’m not trying to be cagey, and I’m going to be calling Ray Leitch just as soon as it is a slightly more civilized hour on the West Coast – what this story fails to mention is the fact that the recount included – in fact, began with – the examination of each and every one of the rejected ballots – 259 in total – which seems to me to be a rather glaring omission. Of the 259, 41 were declared valid and counted, which reduced Dosanjh’s margin of victory from 33 to 26. That, plus the four changed votes from the opened ballot boxes, adds up to 22 – exactly the difference between the candidates’ final tallies, as provided by CP.
Preliminary results (Source: Elections Canada)
Ujjal Dosanjh (Liberal)– 16,774
Wai Young – (Conservative) 15,995
Ann Chambers (NDP) – 7,288
Gulyas Csaba (Green) – 2,209
Charles Boylan (Marxist Leninist Party) – 213
Total votes – 42,479
Results as validated by the returning officer (Source: Elections Canada)
Dosanjh – 16,101 (-673)
Young – 16,068 (+73)
NDP – 7,369 (+81)
Green – 2,067 (-142)
Rejected – 259
Total votes – 42,076 (-403)
Results after judicial recount (Source: Canadian Press)
Ujjal Dosanjh – 16,109 (+8)
Wai Young – 16,087 (+19)
Thanks for the update tip, Jad. I’ll post that.
Jad, I thought this comment at Kady’s was interesting:
comment by matt on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 at 10:46 am:
Having been a scrutineer many times i can tell you the that they really must go through every ballot in an election this close. Every one. It’s not that big of a deal since 98% of them can be determined to be valid at a glance. In Ontario, as a scrutineer I have the right to challenge a ballot that i deem to be unclearly marked. The procedure is no one at the Poll during the count can dispute my challenge, but the ballot goes in a special envelope as a challenged ballot and the judge, if a recount is ordered, makes a determination if voter intent is clear and counts accordingly. There could conceivably be 20 ballots out of 40,000 like that, making this race a dead heat. Then there are miscounts and spoiled ballots that aren’t really spoiled. A few crooked poll clerks in a election like this could easily sway a decision. Imaging if most of the poll clerks came from ACORN. To me the real money in a recount, which surprisingly does not seem to be part of the rules, is to check the number of people who were added to the voters list on elections night across various polls to see if there are any inconsistencies. Was the same name used at 14 different polls? Addresses that actually exist etc. (people who vote with utility bills or a voter with ID swearing an affadavit). If i were going to commit fraud that’s what i would do. That would take an organized group a lot of work to fake about 100 votes, but look at how close this riding is.
[...] Therefore unlike Vancouver South, it seems we have a fair and transparent recount going on in Kitchener-Waterloo. Posted in Federal Election, Voter cynicism, democracy | [...]
Being a constituent of this riding, I knew the Conservatives were trying misuse the ethnic vote. They tried to rally the chinese (Asian) citizens in large amounts to vote for Young regardless of the fact that they knew anything about Canada’s political culture, governance, etc. all the politically apathetic chineses teens, middle aged, and elderly chinese were quasi-forced with their families to go hit the polls. SO YOU TELL ME WHOSE CHEATING THE SYSTEM!!
Eventhough Asian Canadians are the largest ethnic groups, their interests in politics and governance is minimal compared the canadian political culturally interests that the Indo Canadians have. In the last 25 yrs., east indians politicians outnumbered chinese politicians. Raymond Chan, Patrick Wong (MLA),Jenny Kwan, are just the few Asian politicians while the Punjabi, Sikh, indo Canadian politicians have increased in B.C. and not to forget Greater Toronto Area. Indo Canadian populace is here to stay unlike asian immigrants (esp. ESL students), be they Vietnamese, Korean, chinese, Taiwanese, who come and go back to asian as they please.
It is Asian immigrants who violate immigration, cheat (ICBC), and use up tax payers money for the failed ESL education system. ITS THE TRUTH AND NO, IAM NOT BIASED TOWARDS ASIAN CANADIANS BE THEY BORN AND IMMIGRANTS HERE. Back to my point: the Conservative were treacherous and tried to pin ethnic groups against each other as that would have been the only way to defeat Mr. Dosanjh. He is great man for have accomplished the Canadian dream, not an ethnocentric dream.
[...] Vancouver South didn’t get the message. Let’s hope that Wai Young’s appeal is successful and that the powers-to-be realize that [...]
IndoCanadian, I find your remarks incredibly racist. You say you’re not biased, but your whole comment reeks of it.
[...] good enough When I first read Kady O’Malley’s post today, I was quite heartened that Wai Young’s appeal for a full recount would be taken [...]