One of my previous posts regarding the peculiar way the recount was handled in Vancouver South is getting a bit cumbersome (as is this sentence.)
What it all really boils down to is this: Why was only a partial recount done in Vancouver South when the vote differential between the incumbent and the closest runner-up actually started to decrease?
The second question is, do we have a right to know? Should Canadian voters be given some kind of explanation as to why this decision was made?
The third question is, what kind of recount process is occurring in all the other ridings? If every vote gets counted in all other recounts, then why is Vancouver South the exception?
And if you don’t care, you should.
As Platty said, it seems that Every vote counts, they just don’t count every vote….
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Update: From Comments – Janet says it all:
…If the Judge is complying with the rules of Election Canada then the issue becomes why given the dereased margin of victory that the judge did not pursue other options legally available to him to give a more complete review of a statical tie in this riding. Once again it falls to the “People” to demand that each voter who cares enough to exercise their franchise is recognized and respected. This must become a FLAG situation to those of us that really care about democracy…
Look. We just want some answers here. Is that so difficult?
I just wouldn’t have expected this to happen in Canada.
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Monday Update - JR asks an excellent question: In a judicial ‘recount’ what do they count?
Keep a close eye on Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca for us today, J.R.
Conservative Reporter details many of the problems that need to be addressed regarding our electoral process: Election Canada’s rules need revamping so procedure is firm nationally.
There is also an excellent discussion going on a Jack’s Newswatch. Please read it and check out other related links. This story should not be buried.
Democracy is a fragile gift, folks. Please don’t take it for granted!
Related - Liberal leadership contenders can carry old debts into new campaign: Hill Times.
Upperdate: Welcome SDA Readers! Who needs ACORN? We’ve got elections Canada.
Dr. Dawg weighs in here – Vancouver South: The Recount that Wasn’t.
Kady O’Malley’s on it. Vancouver South recount: Don’t shoot the (electoral) messenger, y’all. I don’t often agree with Kady, but there are portions of her post worth considering. And having Macleans pay attention is a good thing.
Evening Update:
ESQUIMALT JUAN DE FUCA RECOUNT SET TO WRAP UP MONDAY EVENING: C-FAX 1070.
But are they counting every ballot???
Upperdate: Keith Martin wins. And congratulations to you Dr. Martin.
Welcome Heartless and Brainless readers!
This is an ISSUE, we must get an answer as to why they decided to stop counting when the ‘winner’ started losing. That should be reason in itself to open all ballot boxes.
If there is a lot of concern about voter apathy, this is a reason for it.
The government has to demand a total recount here, we must insist on it.
Does ANYONE in this democratic country really think a recount of ballots means a partial recount?
What I don’t understand, Liz, is how Canada can feel credible about giving advice to other countries on how to run elections.
A reporter who just discovered the issue today sent me this.
I have just done some research in Elections Canada’s Manual on Judicial Recounts. It may have something to do with what’s found below, but we’re going to try and get some information from Elections Canada themselves:
2.7 Conduct of the recount
The Act provides that a judge shall conduct the recount in one of the following manners:
adding the number of votes reported in the Statements of the Vote
counting the valid ballots, or
counting all of the ballots returned by the deputy returning officers and by the Chief Electoral Officer, including the envelopes set aside unopened under the Special Voting Rules. [304(1)]
2.7.1 Adding the number of votes reported in the statements of the vote
A Statement of the Vote is completed for each polling station within an electoral district, setting out how many votes were cast for each candidate, and how many votes were rejected, spoiled and unused. [287(1)] Statements of the Vote are also completed for special ballots counted at the offices of returning officers. [287(1)] An example of the Statement of the Vote form is reproduced in Appendix C (Form 3) of this handbook.
If the judge decides to add the number of votes reported in the Statements of the Vote, the judge will not count each ballot. Instead, the recount is completed by adding the number of votes recorded in the Statements of the Vote. [304(1)] This type of recount may take place where the deputy returning officer during the count on polling day or the returning officer during the validation has made an arithmetic error in adding the number of votes in the Statements of the Vote.
I think that Justice Patrick Dohm owes the voters of Vancouver South and Canada an explanation for his decision.
His actions in respect to this matter are unacceptable in a democracy irregardless of the section of the Elections Act that allows for a partial sample and which said section of the act should be scrapped so that this situation cannot be repeated.
I hope that the Conservative Party will appeal this result to a higher court.
The person who should be demanding every ballot box be opened and recounted is Ujjal. Without that, his “win” will always have an asterik beside it and he will spend the next term as MP with questions being asked, did he steal his seat. Is that what a potential candidate for leader wants.
Regardless of the outcome, the Ethics committee should delve into all aspects of EC, from raiding offices, getting search warrants in another city from a judge who didn’t take the time to read everything, to allowing indiscretions by liberals to go unquestioned, etc.
Parties must also make some changes and have their candidates nominated long before a writ is dropped. 35 days is not time enough for all the work that has to be done to prepare for an election without some errors being made somewhere. DROs and polling staff must be hired and trained by competant people.
This will be difficult with a minority government and the opposition threatening defeat daily. So, we must start NOW to get these changes made.
The elected MP for a riding gets to choose the DRO etc and that could be done NOW. Maybe they could be given an honorarium to be on call and get their staff together and start training. I would rather pay these people than some artist in Quebec.
A website could be set up in each riding for voters to tell of problems they had, and how to solve them.
We cannot allow this recount fiasco to happen again.
Watch the results of Keith Martin’s recount tomorrow.
Maybe Ezra’s suggestion to fire them all should apply to EC.
We’re talking about a democratic country called Canada here, Rastas Says, not a Banana Republic.
Nothing short of a total recount of ALL ballots will suffice. WE MUST INSIST ON IT. For God’s sake, even Liberals should demand it.
Rastas, how do you intrepret those Elections Canada rules? Are we talking about the ability to combine processes or does the judge have to select either/or? Because that was the point that Swift was trying to make in the other post, I believe. That once the counting process is started, it has to apply to all the ballots.
It sure is confusing.
Mary T, maybe that’s what they call a Pyrrhic victory.
My municipal elections are coming up in November and we have automatic vote readers (like a scanner). If the ballot is rejected by the machine, the poll clerk hands it back to the voter and they can get a new ballot or declare that their vote is spoiled and leave the polling station. I am amazed that the federal election is still conducted the way it is.
Both my wife and daughter were DROs for the election and after 12 hours of dealing with hundreds of voters and their questions, they were very tired and the vote counting process is one of checks and balancing. Mistakes are made, many mistakes. This judicial recount process must be changed to recount every vote and balance to the voters register.
As an aside, in my riding at the care facility I work at, we were expecting a mobile poll to arrive. I had dealt with Elections Canada personnel two weeks previously on the lists etc. A 3:00 pm phone call said they would not be coming as they didn’t think it worth while (I don’t think they had the staff to do it). There were at least half a dozen residents who were ready to vote and were very disappointed. The alternative was to travel to the local hospital (15 minutes away) where there was a poll. Impossible alternative in our case. So sad, but if Gary Lunn, my MP, had been defeated by a slim margin, I would have been screaming bloody murder.
WCT, I’ve heard that from so many different sources that is is an exhausting day. Mistakes can be made for sure. All the more reason for a full recount.
Thanks for your personal stories and insight, as always.
Heh heh. Outside the center of the universe? You must live just outside of Winnipeg, then. LOL. I grew up in Winnipeg and, considering that it’s pretty much smack dab in the middle of Canada, I figure that it’s the center of the known universe. Toronto, unfortunately, deludes itself into thinking that it is the center of the universe. Considering that Toronto votes Liberal, it is only natural that it be delusional.
Great blog, BTW.
E of E, are you referring to my profile? Yes, Toronto deludes itself that it is the centre of the universe, which obviously means that I say that sarcastically.
I have faith that this ball is not the one that will be dropped.The current government is all about this exact thing. It is THEIR M.O.! Honesty and Integrity!
As you talk to people and even hearing local radio talk guys/gals the stories of people that tried to vote,had hassles,walked away. I have heard about post secondary students out of province were denied their voting right even with a witness present.
(is that the “sentence disease”, setting in? lol) Sort of fixed….
The facts in this matter are simple for us. We the voters want a recount to mean something no matter the outcome. I would be mad about this regardless of the political banner!
To change the topic for just one minute to something happy. Next week a couple we know are not only celebrating their joint 88th birthdays, but their 68th wedding anninversary. Both are in relatively good health and mentally alert. Instead of gifts or cards they are suggesting a toonie for the food hampers for Christmas. What a great idea, and I bet they get more than a toonie from most of us.
And best news, they vote conservative.
Just thought we were getting too serious even it is warranted. Sorry.
I would be mad about this regardless of the political banner!
Exactly. And that is why I was heartened to see Liblogger Saskboy speak out about it as well. (Link on earlier post)
If the Judge is complying with the rules of Election Canada then the issue becomes why given the dereased margin of victory that the judge did not pursue other options legally available to him to give a more complete reveiw of a statiscal tie in this riding. Once again it falls to the “People” to demand that each voter who cares enough to exercise their franchise is recognized and respected. This must become a FLAG situation to those of us that really care about democracy.
Mary T, thanks for that good news story. We needed it today, I think.
Janet, that is very well said. Thank you.
Can’t believe it, QP is cheering conservative women who were elected.
Karol, if you could please shorten your comments, get rid of the innuendoes and stick to the facts, I could take your name off of comment moderation. Please!!!
Why does this issue remind me of the HRC’s? Has common sense, truth and respect for Canadians been suspended by bureaucrats with an agenda?
Where has honesty gone?
That thought occurred to me too, Hunter.
How did all this get by us? When did it start happening and how did we not realize it?
Were there any recounts in the 2006 election, I can’t remember or recall any. They always say the best place to hide is in plain sight, so maybe that is why we missed it. With all the phony smear scandals last session and antics by EC, they kept our focus off what was/is important. Never again. Is that the real reason the libs need power again, to keep other secrets secret before we find them.
What are they afraid of, the truth of adscam, the truth about those foundations, and what else is there.
With at least another 2-3 years before the next election, perhaps we can find out. We know the media wont look. They will be spending their time getting us to focus on the leadership race and not what is hidden.
I wonder what it will take for those that are aware of problems in any department managed by civil servants to come forward and spill the beans. Never mind the excuse, it wasn’t in my job description or pay grade or the main commandment of a civil servant, CYA or put off till tomorrow what you could do today.
And if someone comes forward with something, and the media does an attempt to ruin and smear the person, we will know that the media is covering up for the liberals, again.
It would seem that the good judge has been on this side of the fence before….
The following is from Hansard 96-11-28
Bill C-42 in allowing the appointment of a judge to the UN to work on a tribunal on war crimes really relates to the whole area of justice. We have heard several Reform MPs talk about how the justice system has deteriorated here in Canada and what a disgrace it is. I certainly have had my share of problems with illegal refugee claimants in my riding who continually commit crimes so they can use the system to stay in Canada.
There is quite a dramatic case in my riding. I will quote from another local columnist who states:
If you are caught doing something naughty, like forging and selling passports, make sure you come up before B.C. Supreme Court Associate Chief Justice Patrick Dohm, who is full of the milk of human kindness.
The judge sentenced an Iranian passport expert to all of three months, to be served at home with an electronic beeper.
The maximum sentence for forging passports is 14 years. What does Associate Chief Justice Patrick Dohm do? He gives him three months at home with an electronic beeper. What an excellent opportunity for a home based business. The man was working from home in the first place, no taxes to pay, no business licence and no GST returns. It is a wonderful home based business facilitated by a decision of an associate chief justice. Is it any wonder that people are disturbed with the way our justice system has gone when they hear that sort of thing.
This situation, the HRC’s well, is something that happens elsewhere not here in Canada so we want to believe.
We need to start keeping watch and standing up for our democracy.
A few years ago I was watching a documentary about a scientist who used to work for the former USSR. He was now living in the US and I remember a statement he made. It was something like this “Apathy and indifference will bring evil.”
I will never forget that. It was then I started to pay more attention to what was going on around me.
Joanne,
Please remove first of two posts re: Court Party
it was a work in progress.
There is no inuendo in anything that I wrote in that post I just skipped the links to proper sources. If you want I can post them.
Cheers,
Wow. From Hansard! Thanks Platty.
Something that has been bothering me is, that one of the polls had 500 voters listed, yet the polling box had 900 ballets in it, and most of them over the 500 were Liberal. How does this happen? Was this one of the boxes that didn’t make the recount? Does anyone wonder ,if there was just a partial recount done, was it because questions would need to be answered and there would be no answers for strange things like that happening?
Someone also said ,that when there were no voters in the room, the staff were stuffing the ballot boxes. Think I read about that one on the CBC blog…??
Also, where do these boxes go after a recount? To do another recount, were the boxes secure? Once the seal is broken for a recount , then what?
Almost makes you wonder if there is more to this situation than meets the eye.
Who do we go to to get the truth?
Who do we go to to get the truth?
We go to the Blogging Tories sites Jo! ;>)
==
I was a Central Poll Supervisor on election day and was responsible for four polls and I have to say that training this time around was badly managed.
Elections Canada was supposedly caught by surprise and had no time to print up newly updated manuals so they had to send out the old ones with up to fifty inserts.
Training videos were sparse and those that they did have were inadequate as they were based on the old rules.
Corners were cut so the training sessions for hourly workers would finish earlier to save money.
I could go on.
Needless to say, I was more than a little surprised to find a woefully trained crew waiting for me on election day.
The Registration Officer, despite having attended her training session and being told to read her manual, asked me if she had to register each and every voter who came through the polls. After I picked myself up off the floor I told her that she only had to register those very few who weren’t already registered. No more than a couple of dozen in our case.
A couple of Poll Clerks were unsure of their duties and even one of the Deputy Returning Officers was unsure of her job.
Everyone was learning ‘on-the-job’.
Since only the DRO is allowed to touch the ballots I had to depend on them to get it right and I hope they did.
Our counts tallied at the end of the night and that was all that mattered.
We only had one candidate representative present during the count(s) so I relied solely on the DRO’s to inspect and either accept or reject each and every ballot and there were over a thousand of them in all.
I’m wondering though, if Elections Canada is a government agency with the sole purpose of running federal elections and they were caught by surprise then why don’t they subscribe to some of the national newspapers and look for predictions from some of the analysts?
How is it that in such a huge department there was no one person designated to keep their finger on the pulse of politics in Canada?
I saw this election coming a year before the writ was dropped.
NeilD
We go to the Blogging Tories sites Jo! ;>)
Ah, Platty. You know how to make me smile.
How is it that in such a huge department there was no one person designated to keep their finger on the pulse of politics in Canada?
I saw this election coming a year before the writ was dropped.
Neil D, isn’t that incredible? As Platty just said, they only needed to read Blogging Tories!
But seriously, the situation you describe is rather frightening. So much room for error. Makes you almost think that every ballot should be recounted instead of just a few select polls. Yikes!
Johanne, are you just now getting around to losing your faith in the process. I lost my faith in it about 50 years ago. You must always remember the first two laws of politics:
Politician + power + money = corruption.
Unemployable + charm + glibness = electibility.
Also bear in mind Lucas’ law of politics:
Politicians are the bane of any free society.
The point I think a lot of people are missing, including Justice Dohm, is that in Dosanjh’s riding it was an AUTOMATIC recount, not a judicial recount requested by the losing candidate. An automatic recount would signal to me that even though a judge may have some discretion in a judicial recount, this would not apply if the recount was automatic.
Given that one more seat would definitely give the Tories a majority on the committees, it would seem probably that they will challenge this decision, but I guess we will have to wait and see.
It appears from the comments on this and other blogs covering this topic that a lot of us were involved at the polls. The one thing we all have in common is the lack of training of the polling staff.
How could EC have been caught unprepared, don’t they read the papers, or follow the HofC, or cbc/ctv. Every day there was talk of an election. All Dion did was threaten to bring down the govt. With a minority someone at EC should have clued in, it was coming. Maybe they should not have spent so much time raiding offices, (and not removing files) or investigating the so called in and out of the conservatives and ignoring other parties.
EC seems to have a habit of changing rules in mid campaign, whether it is manuals, financing, or training.
We have 143 MPs, and some will be in cabinet, parlimentary secretaries or given other duties. That will leave about 100 backbenchers. I would like to see these MPs have meetings to brainstorm problems that affect their riding. Give each MP a topic to investigate and report on. If there is a problem in one riding it probably exists in others.
EC would be the first one, with several given areas to investigate. Another could be art and culture funding across Canada. This would give them all learning experience and involvement with the grassroots. Report back to the proper Minister. They also have to get their riding associations very active. Recruit poll workers for the next election, get them trained. The grassroots are there to help, use them. But, make sure you are available to cast votes when needed.
Those of us who have worked during elections need ONE place to send our concerns, not 143 MPs. They will get lost in the shuffle. Voters who witnessed problems could use the same place to report problems.
Anyone got other suggestions before the next election.
West Coast Teddi has a touching faith in the honesty of computers. How do you ensure that the computers accurately count the votes? Unless you manually count the votes, as a check, there is no guaranteed way to ensure that the programme has not been altered.
There probably were very few counts that were done exactly as the legislation requires. The DRO is supposed to open the folded ballot, read the name that the vote was cast for, and then show the ballot to the poll clerk and at least two candidates representatives. If two candidates representatives are not available two voters must be substituted.
I have heard that parties in Atlantic Canada pay scrutineers for election day. Perhaps we need to do this all across Canada.
Powell, I’m definitely losing faith in unelected officials who have such power over our electoral process.
Can we compare this partial recount to vote rigging?
Why is the Conservative party not yelling about this very undemocratic maneuver by EC? What’s the silence about?
Are they waiting for a repeat of the same in today’s recount of Keith Martin’s riding?
Why is the Conservative party not yelling about this very undemocratic maneuver by EC? What’s the silence about?
Liz, it’s a mystery to me too. Perhaps it has something to do with the division of powers, or perhaps since the Elections Act says the Judge’s decision is final, there isn’t anything they can do about it.
I haven’t heard yet if Wai Young has decided to appeal the decision or not, but whatever the outcome, this particular part of the Elections Act needs to be revisited, IMHO.
An automatic recount would signal to me that even though a judge may have some discretion in a judicial recount, this would not apply if the recount was automatic.
Jad, that seems logical to me, but logic and fairness don’t see to be involved here.
EC seems to have a habit of changing rules in mid campaign, whether it is manuals, financing, or training.
Mary T, that’s another mystery to me. Who is Elections Canada responsible to? Who is their boss?
Who gets to change the rules and the laws?
Your suggestion of brainstorming sessions at the grassroots level is excellent. We the people need to take back the power.
I have heard that parties in Atlantic Canada pay scrutineers for election day. Perhaps we need to do this all across Canada.
Great idea, Swift. Speaking from personal experience, it is a thankless job, but definitely a crucial one.
If people have the time and care enough for our democratic process to offer their services why would paying them make any difference? They don’t have to travel far, it’s all local. Would money make them feel more obliged to do better or make them more honest?
Something new to be scarred about. Trusty Tory has a link explaining that there is no rule against former leadership candidates with debts unpaid from running again. Funny how EC is concerned about IN and OUT, but it seems liberals can put lots of money OUT in a race and never have to pay it back. Would you want a leader who owes thousands of dollars, from a failed bid, to go into debt to try again, to have their hands on our taxpayer money. Why do only conservatives have to watch every penny, without fear of being raided etc. PMSH must get some rules changes and manpower changed at EC.
Can’t make liberals change their constitution, but why is that little gem is in it. How often have they got away with not paying their debts.
And again I wonder, how many thinking of running this time are just trojan horses for someone else, to get around spending limits, etc. Would you trust MHF or GK to not deliver their delegates to someone else that you don’t support. And with all the push for McKenna have the liberals changed their minds about abortion.
Good point, Liz. In any ideal world, people would care enough to donate their services.
However, it’s a sad fact that even getting people out to vote is a big challenge.
Mary T, I saw that this morning too! Now I am feeling even more jaded about EC.
As I’ve been asking on many blogs lately, exactly who does EC answer to?
Just came across this thread, and am angry, disappointed, shocked, speechless (almost), that a physical count of ballots was started, then halted by this judge. I didn’t see that as an option. You either count none, or count them all, right?
If a judge (any judge) was presiding in a case before the courts, would he look at only, say 12% of the physical evidence presented to him, then declare — “That’s it … I’ve seen enough, guilty as charged” ?
I think not… so what’s the diff? Maybe we are living in a Banana Republic after all. Sad.
The trend was showing that Dosanjh was losing votes, not gaining. They should have kept counting. If the trend had shown early on that his lead was gaining, that might have been a reason to say, “enough”. Makes no sense to me.
Dosanjh should be a man and say, let’s have a total recount.
Just wondering if this situation in Vancouver South is in anyway connected to Hedy Fry continuously winning against all odds!! Have noticed Mike Duffy mentioning many times on his show” Hedy Fry even beating out very popular NDP candidates”. Maybe Ballot stuffing boxes is common in some Vancouver ridings.
MSM consistently dissappoint by manipulating attention away from this recount.
Thankyou Joanne for keeping this story on the Blog. We can’t give up and let Elections Canada off the hook.
So, have the riding constituents raised a fuss yet? From any Party? Do they even care? Has the MSM pronounced on this, then I guess it’s been covered? Was it ever front page news? Back page, 3 x 6 inches on page 6? BCCTV? That is just it: nobody cares, not the media, not the voters, no one, ho hum, how’d the Canucks do last night? World Series, CFL Montreal @ Winnipeg? Hey hon, hows about another beer, and some popcorn!
Hi Joanne,
We did not look at political implications of Ujjal Dosanjh’s possible loss in a recount. Two largest China Towns in Canada are in Toronto and Vancouver. Chinese community in Canada is very conservative
If Wai Young wins recount in Vancouver South riding than her win could spell a doom to Liberal’s grip on their last stronghold “Fortress Toronto”.
Chinese community in Toronto buoyed by this stunning upset and Wai Young’s victory might develop some very peculiar and very dangerous ideas; like have their own Conservative representatives in Ottawa representing values of their community, worse still they might even try to implement these ideas in next election or even by-election. Such development might be the final blow that would slay the Liberal Dragon. You did a commendable job with this blog burst over the weekend but long term implications of what we are asking for go well beyond correcting this particular case of blatant electoral fraud.
Yeah, sad isn’t it JT? I’m guessing though that very few voters are even aware of this. It likely wouldn’t have even been made public if Wai Young hadn’t expressed ‘disappointment’ that not all the ballot boxes were opened.
Elections Canada sure isn’t very transparent about procedures and processes when it comes to recounts. I’m glad that the media won the right to be at the recount for Keith Martin’s riding – and that was over their protests.
Kadey O’Malley spinning to protect those vulnerable beauracrats at Elections Canada. Good luck to Trusty Tory , Here come the nasty attacks from the left enabled with the support of MacLeans. Kady O’Malley collecting a large salary from MacLeans to support the Liberal Party. The first to step into the gutter to defend the Liberals before the Canadian voter.
How low are the MSM media prepared to go?
If no one holds EC to account, why would they feel obligated to “perform” in the best interests of democracy? They can run their own show as they see fit.
Even the Conservative party aren’t even interested, or we would have heard something by now. Hell, un-elected HRC’s are shutting down Conservative, non-PC free speech, with nary a peep from the very people who benefit from Conservative thought process and discussion. They even send government paid lawyers to intervene on behalf of the CHRC, in a recent case.
How quaint, un-elected, publicly paid bureaucrats are running the country into the ground, democracy-wise and nobody cares, not even their electd bosses. We pay the Party’s election expenses through $1.95 subsidies, they don’t even have to solicit donations anymore, just convince enough people to cast a ballot and then agitate for Proportional Representation so that seats are allocated as to popular vote percentages. Don’t even have to have a political policy to do that. They’ll just buy your vote with someone else’s money.
Money for nothing, seats for free. Pension.
Expect anyone supporting the above to “speak for you”? Not gonna happen.
This has knock-all to do with Elections Canada. Pay attention. It was a judge who pulled this “sampling” caper, which is not (at least on my reading of the Canada Elections Act) permitted by law. The judge’s “recount” needs to be appealed–but save your verbal ammo fro the right target here.
My verbal ammo is to protect the right of Canadians to have their vote counted. I expect Elections Canada to stand up for Canadians and protect our one vote.Why didn’t Elections Canada point out the rules to this judge? If they did and the judge refused to follow rules then Elections Canada should make this known. The votes of Canadians in this country are being ignored in Vancouver South. Some one needs to stand up for these voters. If not Elections Canada then who?
Seems to me that we’ve all just elected MPs whose jobs it is to take calls from us and do something about this situation no?
How many here have put that call in to their MP and started a formal paper trail. A blogburst is the easy part.
The voices are not loud enough yet, AND, if the folks we elected want our continued support…they need to get on this yesterday.
There needs to be a complete appeal based on the actions and decisions of this judge. That needs to come from our elected officials with the rest of us as backing.
Is there any advantage at all for the gov’t side to wait this out? Timelines etc.?
So Dawg…you are saying EC had nothing to do with this. Who decides a recount…the judge? And who oversees Elections in Canada…the judge?
Didn’t think so.
EC has to take responsibility for this, and deal with the judges actions.
Nice to see O’Malley picking this up…ha!It gives her one more opportunity to spout off her bias by dissing TT’s post as ‘conspiract theory’.
If CPC had picked up a riding in this manner it would be labelled suspicious , all over MSM yesterday as the CPC scandal, and quipped as the “Ballot-gate of ’08″.
Joanne! Long time no read!
Looks like you’re up to good work here. This is fishier than a Maritime dockyard. The thing I like (don’t like) best about it is that with this stunning victory, Dosanj thinks he can run for the leadership of the Liberal Party!
Riley! Good to hear from ya!! Yes, the news was barely out that his victory was upheld and he was out of the gate with his leadership plans. Amazing.
Who do we blame for this fiaco??
The right answer is: The Court Party.
Here are some links if you have the time and the will to educate yourself:
http://www.bcrevolution.ca/court_party.htm
http://oldfraser.lexi.net/publications/forum/2000/05/section_06.html
http://www.canadianlawyermag.com/index.php/Back-Page-Battle-of-wills-over-judicial-appointments-process.html
http://www.lawtimesnews.com/Headline-News/The-decline-of-political-democratic-accountability
http://www.yorku.ca/robarts/projects/canada-watch/pdf/vol_7_4-5/morton.pdf
Earlier today you mentioned your concern about the silence from PMSH and the CPC.
Is this the calm before the storm? Are they quietly gathering ammo soon to come out on this topic with guns blazing? I hope so!
O’Malley is the only media on this?And she of couse reveals her bias.Joanne …you and TT and other bloggers have been on this for 2 full days!!
You know if it had been the other way around the media would be in frenzy!
So, Joanne, you’ve started this new thread because the other one was getting long. How about we re-group and pull together a bit, and take a look at what actions we’ve all taken so far besides being here?
Anyone. I put a call in to my Conservatives MP, left a voice message and then follow-up with an email, saying that this is something I expect my elected rep. to be looking at and a gov’t demanding some action on.
bluetech:
Do your homework.
“So Dawg…you are saying EC had nothing to do with this.”
Yes.
“Who decides a recount…the judge?”
Yes, upon application by a candidate. Or, in the case of a very close vote ( a difference of less than 1/1000 of the votes cast), a judicial recount is automatically triggered, as in this case.
“And who oversees Elections in Canada…the judge?”
No. Just the recounts.
Quick note – the Quebec result has been revered AGAIN. spotted this at Elections Canada and on one of the Newswatch Blogs
Teddi, what?? What are you talking about?
as usual I’m not sure (not an unusual occurrence) When I read and re-read the article it seemed to me that the judge had reversed the results of the recount which to my way of thinking there was a recount then a reversal. so now I am trying to find where I saw the article but being at work and having a busy day I am lacking in time.
You can Delete me if you wish ha ha
It’s o.k. Teddi. We all have days like that.
Probably the ‘reversal’ was applying to the seat going to the Liberals rather than the Bloc, as was originally announced.
I truly don’t understand this. How can we call ourselves a democracy if we don’t count every vote? Is it cumbersome? Well tough! That’s democracy and if we don’t count every vote the election itself doesn’t count (at least in that riding) and it’s all a sham. How many times has this happened before? What idiot let this ever be legal in the first place? We as Canadians have a right to know if our MPs are truly elected. They have the right to know if they truly deserve to be there. I don’t care if the liberal or the Conservative or whoever wins I just want to know they were actually elected! I can’t believe this. If you don’t recount every vote it’s not a recount. That is a basic, basic thing that goes back to the dawn of democracy. Now EC claims they have the right to decide based on guesswork? What madness is this?
I have a question: Does Canada have international observers present during an election as is common in many countries? I would think this would be prudent even if there are no concerns: it shows respect for the process and makes it normal; and less of a perceived insult to fledgling democracies such as Afghanistan. What did our observers say?
If every vote really doesn’t count then did my vote count? Did I cast a ballot in vain?
For clarity: I am aware that the judge made the final decision but the policy of passing it off to a judge still lies with EC. They made the policy to allow this option. Why?
May:
The narrowness of the plurality in this case triggered an automatic recount in this case. EC had nothing to do with that. This is a bad enough case without flinging accusations at the wrong folks.
Dr. Dawg:
I know EC changes their own laws (sometimes retroactively) in election financing so this lead me to believe they did the same for recount policy. If this is not the case (and from the research and intelligence of your posts I know that I can take you at your word); how was the law drafted? I have a hard time believing Parliament would draft such a poor law about such a vital thing (especially for them). My question was how did a law even emerge that gave this digression to the judge in the first place? Or if as you commented in Kady’s article; he didn’t have that digression; how was a law drafted that could be misinterpreted that way?
Oh and before I forget…for the record I knew the recount was automatic I was blaming EC (wrongly I presume) for crafting the original law although the main fault of course lies with the judge. My apologies for not being clear.
I would imagine that the CPC would wait until the Keith Martin recount is completed, which should be tomorrow at the latest, before they take any action on the Dosanjh recount, since their strategy would obviously depend on whether or not the same thing happened in the EJDF recount. They have 8 days to appeal, so lots of time left.
Incidentally, before we dump all over Kady, for once I think she actually made some good points, and certainly a number of the comments were expressing ideas very similar to what people have said here.
I do agree with Kady that in Van South, the judge seems to have unilaterally decided on his course of action. However, I think it is incumbent on Elections Canada to step in and apply the rules, even if he is an Associate Chief Justice. Elections Canada seem to have no problem playing hardball with the federal government, but of course the local EC people may be somewhat less combative.
this discussion is snowballing to the point of becoming very repetitive. We can carve this up as much as we want but we pay people…our elected reps. to get to the bottom of this. The sooner the better.
One would hope that this is most disturbing to many: the candidate, candidate support, CPCHQ and us here, who know only too well that the Liberals can manage to get their hooks into just about everything including those who are supposed to work independently.
We can talk until the cows come home but it’s not getting us anywhere that’s obvious to me.
I am wondering what exactly Elections Canada is responsible for? If they are responsible for protecting Canada’s reputation as a fair and equal country that gives all Canadians one vote that matters, then they are failing.
Who chooses the judge for a recount? Prove to us that Elections Canada is not accountable in this situation before Canadians are forced to apologize for questioning Elections Canada’s role in this. What kind of a country do we live in if we are made to believe that we do not deserve answers.
Elections Canada officials come from the pool of the same incompetent bunch of officials that make up our civil service and run this country where we don’t get the best for the job but get someone who is bilingual as the main priority.
Competence has taken a back seat to being bilingual so what do you expect if you don’t pick the best and the brightest.
I would imagine that the CPC would wait until the Keith Martin recount is completed, which should be tomorrow at the latest, before they take any action on the Dosanjh recount, since their strategy would obviously depend on whether or not the same thing happened in the EJDF recount.
That’s exactly what I’m thinking, Jad. And there is another one coming up in K-W on Wednesday.
That’s a good point Fay; EC is responsible for elections and ensuring we Canadians trust in the process, full stop. The buck has to stop somewhere and I guess at the end of the day it stops with those responsible for carrying out the election. It is only natural the blame for fiascos involving the counting of votes should fall on them. In any case I am not suggesting they were biased to any candidate (although that possibility does exist and; naturally; the speculation will continue until recounts are done properly). I believe this is a case of sloppy incompetence. However as long as the process is flawed the potential for unintentional cases of false elections (and yes even intentional ones) will exist. This must be fixed pronto. If the sum of ALL ballots favors Ujjal Dosanjh then his is a true and valid election. If not his election is false and he will sit in Parliament against the will of the people with no right to be there. I sincerely hope he was truly elected; but if the ballots are not counted WE WILL NEVER KNOW. My faith in the process is deeply shaken. I never thought something like this would happen in Canada.
Hoping that’s what’s going on, CPC is going to wait until all the recounts are in. However, since there is a different Judge at each recount, can we expect the same modus operandi?
Martin won in his riding by a bit wider margin than Dosanjh did in his, neither is anything to be cocky about. They’ve both been diminished.
Peter B, don’t disagree with you, that’s part of the problem. Many of our best people are excluded from working for their government on the basis of not being fluent in the French language. That’s another issue and it’s not likely to change any time soon.
I agree with you May. It is a shock that this can happen in Canada. I worry that this is not the first time a vote was manipulated in a “so called recount”. The MSM would have hidden these details from us and continue to do so. Thankfully with the internet and Blogging, Canadians can decide for themselves now.
Maybe there is more to this than meets the eye;
Oct.26, 2008
An Indo-Canadian Newspaper reports on this riding’s election:
“The LINK has also learned that there were many irregularities in voting in the riding with one particular poll – which had the maximum of 500 votes to be cast, but allegedly had a final count of more than 900 votes with more than 800 allegedly credited to the Liberal candidate.: Ref:
http://www.thelinkpaper.ca/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1224526729&archive=&start_from=&ucat=1
Joanne,
It seems to me that Liberano$ plan of action was to do some horse trading in BC. If they knew that they were going to lose both riding in BC in recounts their strategy to go with the recount in Vancouver South on Friday and Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca on Monday made lot of sense.
If it was not for the blog burst that you started on the weekend they could have easily thrown Keith Martin under the bus, and let Conservatives send another lawyer Troy DeSouza to Ottawa and call it fair tonight.
If that was the plan than it would explain MSM’s silence on Vancouver South recount scandal over the weekend after the story broke on Friday.
We will see, but I expect that MSM will pick up on Vancouver South recount scandal as soon as Troy DeSouza is declared a winner in Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca recount.
New link;
http://www.thelinkpaper.ca/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1225137652&archive=&start_from=&ucat=1&cat=1
The latest wee bit of good news….Thursday Supreme Court for a re-count of the re-count!!
http://www.cknw.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocal/Story.aspx?ID=1035772
[...] Background on this story here. [...]
Update: They have finished counting in the Keith Martin recount, but no result as yet – from A Channel Victoria.
It looks like all the votes have been counted in this recount, as they have been working at it since 8.30 am and it is now 5.30 pm.
Thanks guys! This is fantastic news about Wai Young. Good for her!
If anyone hears the recount totals for Keith Martin’s riding, please let me know. Thanks.
New post up.
Good news about Van South.
The CP report still insists that a judge has the discretion to count a “sampling.” I wish someone could show me where–I could virtually quote the Canada Elections Act at this point.
Keith Martin has won the recount and retained the seat. Sorrry, no details yet !!!
link here.
Can anyone show me where a sampling proves anything in regards to total votes – this is absurd and totally ridiculous.
If the judge is not above answering questions(as most of them are too arrogant to explain) he should tell Canadians how a sampling makes any sense in a recount.
Dawg:
http://www.elections.ca/content.asp?section=gen&document=ec90565&dir=bkg&lang=e&textonly=false
Scroll down to the Judicial Recounts header.
“The judge makes the recount from the statements contained in the ballot boxes, or recounts some or all of the ballots returned by the deputy returning officers. The judge then totals the ballots cast for each candidate as well as spoiled or rejected ballots.”
Key words “recounts some or all of the ballots” seem clear. Reading the entire contents of the link, the procedure — as far as I can tell — is that on election night, even if one candidate is winning by 10,000 votes with only two ballot boxes left, you *have to* count all the remaining votes. If the race is so tight — say, 33 votes, or 21, or 6 — as to trigger a recount, then you suddenly *don’t* have to count all the votes cast; you can count “some” of the ballots, and then declare a winner, with the results being binding.
I know.
Congrats to Keith Martin!
See, in this case, the Conservative challenger called off the recount when it became clear he wasn’t going to win. Big difference!
The story from Canadian Press (on MacLeans site)has more details. Judge Dohm could turn this down and the Conservative spokesman says in that event they may have to go to the Court of Appeals!!!!
http://www.macleans.ca/canada/wire/article.jsp?content=n1027127A
It seems that the Court Party is sweating bullets tonight. Troy DeSouza is a lawyer so his entire future professional career is on line in this fiasco. Poor guy had no other choice than validate partial count decision of Justice Patrick Dohm from last Friday. The next thing we will hear that Justice Dohm stopped the re-count at Wai Young’s request or that there was some misunderstanding to that effect.
MSM plays the costs angle.
Just read for yourself:
http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=5f3488f5-ab19-4f17-b9db-c968be5c73e6
===Keith Martin wins election in recount===
68 votes separated Martin from Conservative challenger
Times Colonist
Published: Monday, October 27, 2008
Keith Martin has won re-election as Liberal MP for Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca after a recount was called off this afternoon.
Conservative challenger Troy DeSouza called off the recount after it became apparent that the number of disputed ballots would not bridge the gap between him and Martin.
In the election night count, on Oct. 14, Martin won by a 68-vote margin.
Martin had 20,042 votes to DeSouza’s 19,974.
The margin of votes between DeSouza and Martin widened to 70 ballots in the recount, not counting 67 disputed ballots which were not resolved because DeSouza terminated the recount.
“It worked out in the best spirit of democracy and luckily we came out on the right side,” said Martin.
DeSouza had sought and was granted a judicial recount.
The margin of defeat in the original vote was too wide to trigger an automatic recount.
DeSouza said earlier that he wanted a recount to maintain public confidence in the electoral system, given the likelihood of human error during the long and complicated election-night proceedings.
Martin did not oppose the recount.
DeSouza’s lawyer Bruce Hallsor provided 18 sworn affidavits by Conservative party scrutineers who alleged some ballots were rejected or improperly counted. For example, one scrutineer alleged Elections Canada counted a ballot where the person marked an “X” on the candidate’s name, not in the ballot’s circle.
Numerous affidavits alleged some polling stations recorded more or fewer votes than the actual number of voters.
The cost of the recount is covered by Elections Canada, including the $750-a-day charge for the Empress room.
Both the Liberals and Conservatives are each permitted to bring three lawyers and 25 staff.
Elections Canada provides their own officials and legal staff from Ottawa.
The Times Colonist won a precedent-setting decision to attend and report on the judicial recount. It’s believed to be the first time a media organization has been allowed to witness the Elections Canada proceedings, which have previously been held in secret.
Karol Karol Karol stop it. Do not mix up Esquimalt with Vancouver South. Please it is too confusing.
[Troy DeSouza ... with no other choice than validate partial count decision of Justice Patrick Dohm from last Friday. The next thing we will hear that Justice Dohm stopped the re-count at Wai Young’s request or that there was some misunderstanding to that effect.]
Let’s calm down and wait for Thursday. If the system is truly screwed then we all go ballistic but until then… be patient and don’t mix up ridings or issues.
It’s confusing enough without conspiracy theories which make people want to hand out tinfoil hats. If you are right I’ll accept my hat on Thursday.
Jan, good for you. I’m glad you said that. Karol needs to learn how to stick to the facts.
No more conspiracy theories, please Karol. I’ve been allowing you a fair bit of latitude, but this is exactly the kind of thing that some on the other side gleefully use against us.
[...] given the reaction of Canadians to posts at Blue Like You and here at Cotm, it would appear that almost everyone else understands what a recount looks like [...]
[...] given the reaction of Canadians to posts at Blue Like You and here at Cotm, it would appear that almost everyone else understands what a recount looks like [...]