This is outrageous! Why wouldn’t every ballot box be opened in a recount as crucial as the one in Vancouver South? (H/T to reader Karol):
Liberal incumbent and former B.C. premier Ujjal Dosanjh has retained his Vancouver South seat after a recount Friday showed he had won — albeit with a shrunken margin of 22 votes instead of 33.
The victory was confirmed by regional Elections Canada official Donna Ceele.
A disappointed Tory candidate Wai Young said she was disappointed because Associate Chief Justice Partrick [sic] Dohm, who was in charge of the recount, elected not to open all the ballot boxes . ..
What the…?
And to add insult to injury, Dosanjh is now pondering a shot at Stephane Dion’s job!
Is this how you run a democracy?
And where does the buck stop? With Elections Canada or Parliament? (Which should consider revamping the Election Act, BTW.)
And who are they all supposed to be working for?
(In case you didn’t know the answer, it’s us!)
* * * *
Update: This post has been picked up by Jack’s Newswatch – Daily Blogger. As I mentioned there, a Canadian Press report seems to suggest that a ‘sampling’ is allowed and it is up to the judge’s discretion as to exactly how many ballot boxes are opened. To me, this just gives way too much power to a single human being:
…The Canada Elections Act gives the judge presiding over a recount the option of recounting votes from some or all of the ballot boxes, along with spoiled and rejected ballots – 259 of them in the case of Vancouver South. The results of the recount are considered final …
Also please check out Crux of the Matter and Conservative Reporter. Perhaps this topic warrants a Blogburst.
Hunter and Raphael now picking up the thread. Thanks! The Blogging Tories forums have this one going on several threads.
* * * *
Upperdate: It was a poignant moment when I heard Beverly Mahood open HNIC tonight with the words, "God keep our land glorious and free".
Do these words still ring true? On the advice of my personal ‘Paralegal’, I’ve gone back and done some severe comment editing (i.e. deleting).
This is a much greater concern than a simple recount- Do we still have free speech in Canada?
Conservative Young heartened by 22-vote loss to Dosanjh:
Conservative Wai Young vowed to continue her political fight after a judicial recount Friday found she lost to Vancouver South incumbent Ujjal Dosanjh by just 22 votes.
Young said she campaigned hard to overcome a 9,000-vote gap "in what was seen to be the strongest Liberal seat west of Manitoba."
She said she was heartened by the tiny margin of victory for Dosanjh, a veteran politician and former B.C. premier first elected as a member of Parliament in 2004…
It really was a remarkable victory in its own right, even if Dosanjh was declared the narrow winner. Get him next time, Wai. We’ll all be routing for you.
* * * *
Sunday Update: Welcome National Newswatch readers! Ah, I think this is the first time I’ve had this honour. Please ask your local media to investigate this story – for the sake of democracy! Thank you.
Also please read the comments at the CBC website following the story where we learn that not all ballot boxes were opened. We want to know why not? We deserve answers.
Vancouver South is fast becoming the epicenter of voter cynicism.
* * * *
Another (Liberal) (Green) voice against the so-called recount in Vancouver South – When a recount isn’t complete : Abandoned Stuff by Saskboy. [My deepest apologies to Saskboy. I don't blame you for not wanting to be called a 'Liberal'. See comments]
Trusty Tory’s on it now – The bias of Elections Canada.
WELCOME Heartless and Brainless readers!
Maybe there are more ways to lose a majority than making arts funding cuts in Quebec????
Electoral Fraud would top my list.
How many seats did a Tory Candidate lose by a small margin and how many other “ballot boxes” didn’t get opened when the votes were counted???
Karol is right – we need to make some noise about this.
Letters to Elections Canada?
Let’s see if the MSM jump all over this!
[...] Blue Like You | Justice Dohm has some explaining to do [...]
What I would like to know is what is the standard procedure in a case like this? How much latitude did Justice Dohn have here? What are the rules?
Will this happen again in Keith Martin’s riding?
We need to make a lot of noise!
Maybe a petition??
Hopefully someone with more computer savy than me knows how to get those things going. I would sign it for sure.
Interesting to read further on Karol’s link to trace the connections from the Justice to the Liberal party.
Interesting to read further on Karol’s link to trace the connections from the Justice to the Liberal party.
Yeah. I’m not sure how much of that is speculation and how much is fact, but it is interesting for sure.
“Yeah. I’m not sure how much of that is speculation and how much is fact, but it is interesting for sure.”
I just can’t believe that when only 22 votes are separating such an important vote, any IMPARTIAL judge would just say – “good enough”??
Election Canada must start doing a better training program for anyone working at the polls. Most people hired for this job are recruited after the Writ is dropped. How more votes can be cast than there are voters is beyond me. I do know from experience that one can be sworn in, and it would be possible for this person to vote in more than one place, going to where they were on the list and then produce utitility bills or such, and photo ID to vote at another. People that have moved from one area to another could do this. You check off on your tax return if you wish to be on the electors list, and that address on your return is what goes on the list.
I think that the elected MP of a riding has some say as to who poll officials are.
I also know from experience that many tax filers are refusing to check that box on the return, as they are afraid of what EC or Rev Can are doing with that info. Everything about you is on that return. It is up to each candidate to make sure they have scrutineers at the polls but lots don’t.
Regardless, is Ujjal is seriously thinking of running for Dion’s job he better think again. With a 22 vote questionable win, that will haunt him in a federal election. Isn’t it funny that Canada and the US often sent representatives to foreign countries to oversee their elections, but no one oversees the elections in Canada or the USA. Fraud is happening in both of them.
Anyway, we will defeat Ujjal next time as people will know that every vote is important. Wonder if he will vote on NO, and bills that could send him back to those voters.
FYI, I just fixed the first link on this post. I think I had the second one in twice. Should make a bit more sense now.
Election Canada must start doing a better training program for anyone working at the polls. Most people hired for this job are recruited after the Writ is dropped.
That’s right, Mary T. I’ve talked to a few people hired by EC in this past election, and they say the money isn’t worth the time they put in. Most do it as a way to get involved and feel it is their civic duty but they all said it is a long, exhausting day.
Also, stories have emerged about ballot boxes being taken out of the room without attending scrutineers, etc. The whole process needs a serious revamping.
Every vote counts, they just don’t count every vote….
The fact that the margin of votes dropped by ten would be a good reason for recounting all the boxes. I could see stopping maybe if it was going the other way or even staying the same. It’s obvious that the vote recounting was going in the conservatives favour and that’s why it was stopped.
Here’s a link to the Canada Elections Act:
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/E-2.01/bo-ga:l_14//en#anchorbo-ga:l_14
and here’s what the law actually says about conducting a recount:
303. (1) Each candidate and up to three of his or her representatives may attend at a recount. If a candidate is not present and is not represented at the recount, no more than three electors are entitled to attend on the candidate’s behalf.
No other person may attend
(2) Except with the permission of the judge, no person other than those described in subsection (1) and the returning officer may be present at the recount.
Recount procedure
304. (1) The judge shall conduct the recount by adding the number of votes reported in the statements of the vote or by counting the valid ballots or all of the ballots returned by the deputy returning officers or the Chief Electoral Officer.
(3) At a recount, the judge shall
(a) count the ballots in the manner prescribed for a deputy returning officer or a special ballot officer;
(b) verify or correct, if necessary, each statement of the vote; and
(c) review the decision of the returning officer with respect to the number of votes cast for a candidate, in the case of a missing or destroyed ballot box or statement of the vote.
Now, bear in mind that a total of 42,076 votes were recorded, from 184 polling stations. That’s a lot of ballot boxes to be counted by . . . well, not a lot of staff. If the judge chose to rely on the tally per box, and open just the boxes containing spoiled or unreadable ballots, it’s his discretion.
Now as it happens, there is an avenue for appeal:
311. (1) If a judge does not comply with the provisions of sections 300 to 309, an aggrieved party may, within eight days after the failure to comply,
(c) in the Province of Nova Scotia or British Columbia, to a judge of the Supreme Court of the Province;
BUT it’s up to the Tories to demonstrate that the way the judge conducted the recount ran contrary to the sections quoted above.
This requires a stronger cup of coffee. When the number separating the 2 actually goes DOWN one would think that it would inspire Mr. LAZY to open all of the boxes. YA THINK?
EC is looking the worst in this election than ever before. Something has to be done.
This definately needs some legs. Voters would rather know that a candidate lost or won by 100% of the ballots than a selection. She must be devastated.
Every vote counts, they just don’t count every vote….
Platty, that was brilliant! Sad, but brilliant.
Phantom, thanks for the rules. I think in a case like this more staff should be allowed to attend. Perhaps the Elections Canada act needs a revamping.
If every single vote had been counted and Uggal had still won, I’d be fine with it.
But as Bec says, Voters would rather know that a candidate lost or won by 100% of the ballots than a selection.
It leaves a bad taste and lingering doubts.
Wai Young should start canvassing NOW for the next election. Make it a landslide!
At the close of the poll a lot of paper work is involved before the boxes are even opened. After the votes are counted, the ballots for each candidate are put in a separate envelope, sealed, signed by the DRO and the scrutineers if they wish. I always sign the envelope in such a way that if it is opened it will be impossible to seal it again without disturbing my name. All of us did the same. This year there were special seals that we signed after they were placed on the envelope. These envelopes are then placed in the ballot box, with unused ballots and other forms, and sealed and signed again. Each scrutineer is then given a copy of the results. I wonder if in a recount they compare the ballots used to unused ones. They are numbered and recorded. Who verifies that the envelopes in the box have not been opened or resealed, or the number of unused ballots are the same. It would be interesting to see how many votes were cast in the advance poll at this riding, and see if any of those names showed up again. Advance polls are usually held in a few places in a riding, not every voting place. They have a list of all voters in the riding and your name is crossed off. But, I noticed that on voting day my name was not crossed off the list at the poll. In a large riding, where one doesn’t know the majority of voters it would be possible to vote twice. Then you have the mailed in ballots, or the ballots from the EC office where one is allowed to vote. What about the military vote. Where do those ballots go.
Perhaps this session of parliament we could have a committee to investigate EC and how votes are handled and voters lists updated. There has got to be a better way. Look at the problems Laurie Hawn found in landslide Annies riding when he spent months going thru the voters list.
And don’t forget, that in rural ridings the ballot boxes of advance polls and voting day were taken home, till being delivered the next day to EC offices.
The winner of the previous election can nominate people for the DRO and Registration Desk positions. The second place finisher can nominate people for polling clerks. If these numbers are not sufficient the Returning Officer gets the remainder from “other sources.” The Returning Officer asks for a replacement name from the parties if one of their nominees is unsatisfactory.
I am shocked that a recount can be done with just a sample of the votes. Parliament dropped the ball on writing the elections act if they didn’t insist every ballot be checked. I was a scrutineer for the vote count in the 2006 election. One of the poll clerks was messing up the count badly. The DRO noticed this and the count had to be started over again. If the DRO had not been observant, or a scrutineer noticed the problem, the count for that poll would have been out by far more than 22 votes. I think not doing a complete recount with the vote total that close is completely irresponsible.
Does anybody know if the recount in Quebec that took the BLOC seat away was handled this way? All I have seen is the LIBS fluffing their feathers on MDL.
Does anybody know if the recount in Quebec that took the BLOC seat away was handled this way?
I would like to know exactly how all the recounts are being handled.
Let’s try to pool our information and compile a list.
311. (1) If a judge does not comply with the provisions of sections 300 to 309, an aggrieved party may, within eight days after the failure to comply
How about if we do some homework on this and then email Wai and ask her to grieve this within the 8-day avenue she has to do so?
First we calm down…then we research widely..then we email her
So, Ujjal and Martin would have nominated the DRO in their ridings, and I bet they were ardant liberals.
So, we know that all polling clerks in the next election will be nominated by a conservative. To lose 9000 votes has to be a ego buster for both these floor crossers.
Any liberals sitting in caucus that got there by very slim majorities will be looked at as stealing their seat. Is that what the liberals want canadians to think. Great start to getting canadians to trust them again. There will be lots of comments tossed to these two in the HofC of they try to be imortant or attack the conservatives via committees etc.
Liberals stole our money and now they steal elections.
That is the message that is in our heads and no negative advertising was necessary.
If the results had been for the conservative can you imagine what the media would do with it.
The difference is getting smaller and they STOP counting unbelievable, unacceptable, COUNT THEM ALL!! or start calling this place Canadastan.
cheers Bubba
Why even bother with a recount if not ALL ballots are not recounted? I believe the recount in Quebec found that one ballot box hadn’t even been counted while one was counted twice. How do we know that the same thing didn’t happen in Ujjal’s riding? Were all the spoiled ballots looked at?
This leaves too many questions unanswered. Elections Canada is really starting to stink of incompetence and bias.
One question guys, Do you think there will an election in a few months;apparently the liberals are hinting for one.
Keith Martin’s recount will take place Monday and Tuesday at the Empress Hotel in Victoria, no less. The judge has agreed to have 25 volunteers from the CPC and 25 from the LPC present at the recount. (I volunteered but they apparently had more than enough so they didn’t need me unfortunately !)
In addition, the Times Colonist, our local Canwest paper has sought permission in court and received it from the judge to witness the recount. This is apparently a first. While both political parties supported the presence of a reporter, Elections Canada tried to stop it on the grounds that he would be able to identify voters who signed their names or put their initials on the ballot slip. Also I guess, in advance polls your address is shown.
Sounds like it should be a lot more fair than the Vancouver one, which I hope the CPC protests. That sounds as though when Dosanj’s numbers started going down, the judge simply decided to stop the count.
Wai’s info on conservative website
Address:
6647 Victoria Drive
Vancouver
V5P 3Y2
Phone:
778.238.1820
Fax:
eMail:
info@waiyoung.ca
Web:
http://www.waiyoung.ca
You check off on your tax return if you wish to be on the electors list, and that address on your return is what goes on the list.
Oh, really? It took ten years for my wife to get not only her name on the list, but spelt correctly and she filed her income tax forms with address etc on it, for ten years! Government employees are incompetent. It took two more years, phone calls and letters to get her on the list. In the end they still spelt her name wrong!
Wai info-conservative website
We could encourage her to appeal by emailing her.
If this former BC Premier (liberal) decides to run for the leadership…he will be dogged the whole way by conservative bloggers…
If you’ve heard about all the voting shenanigans south of the border, you know, YOU JUST KNOW, the same thing is happening up here. What we know for sure about liberals and leftists is that democracy takes a back seat when they are entitled to their entitlements. They’ll do anything to win, they’ll cheat and lie, all the while with a slick smile on their face.
Ujjal as liberal leader? Hah, good luck with that, you egotistical blowhard! He’s a legend in his own warped mind.
Now I’m pissed.
As for working the polls.. I just got my $197.83 for the day.. which was 6:45 am to 10:30 p.m.. no breaks as you can’t leave the poll box or have another cover. If you need a bathroom run, only one of the two can leave and no one who shows up to vote can do so until both are at the station. Me? I took 3 bathroom breaks of about 50 seconds each and took crap when I returned from a voter for having to stand there and a whole 20 seconds. Worth $197.83? Only because I think of it as my civic duty. Plus, the training is shit.. they hire people that don’t have the capacity to understand the process (I had to help 3 people officially close their polls AFTER I’d balanced and closed mine) and no one can leave the room at the end of the night til every poll is balanced and closed.
As for scruitineers, we had one – a conservative. He showed up at 6 pm, stayed for the count.
The counting is done by the poll clerk and DRO. In my station there were 10 polls, the only compentent people there were myself and my clerk and another couple. That left 8 polls (16 people) counting votes that I wouldn’t have trusted to count sheep to put them to sleep. Potential margin of error?? Huge! HUGE!!!
Yes, we need to bombard anyone who will listen with a demand to have all the polls in Vancouver South recounted!
all this does is give the MSM one more reason to flog a dead liberal horse. They lost and yet even the tory bloggers lend undue attention to the liberals, when Harper represented us very well internationally this week.
Let the Liberals do their own advertising and spinning.
If there’s reason to be suspicious of elections canada and recounts, maybe we should be amassing support for a total ethics inquiry into Elections Canada because I do believe we need it.
A good start would be to bombard Dosanjh with emails, to START earning the “TRUST” and demand “ALL BALLOT BOXES BE RECOUNTED”. Lets see the “BLOWHARD” act on that for his “TRUST” restart ,if he’s SERIOUS.
Even Wai Young said she was “DISAPPOINTED” they didn’t count ALL the boxes. What does that tell us?
I was soooo hoping we wouldn’t have to look at the face of Dosanjh in the HOC. Wai Young isn’t the only one disappointed….sigh.
good insight annie…thanks for your report…
Good work CR. I bet a lot of bloggers are googling those two names.
Back to topic
258 polls, means 258 ballot boxes with 258 envelopes containing the votes for each candidate.
All that would need to be recounted are those that could change results, the conservative and liberal and spoiled ballots.
Could a conflict of interest be laid, re the post by CR. Wonder what the reaction would be if this seat could be null and void till the next election. After this mess I would think more attention will be paid to the Martin recount. Perhaps media should be there to televise all recounts live.
We do need an ethics investigation of EC and also to see if their employees have connections to any party, via marriage, family etc.
Ujjal will probably take his seat but he better stay in the background with no responsibility except be a trained seal and vote yes or no.
Anything he says will not be believed.
Maybe he should resign and have a by-election called within days. Great way for the liberals to start gaining our trust.
JT. That is how one is supposed to get on the list, and maybe we need to go back to door to door registration. Most of it is done by computer and you know, garbage in garbage out.
Good sleuthing here, people! I had to go out for a while, but am trying to catch up now. Thanks!!
Another angle on this is how many MSM outlets are reporting the fact that not all the ballots were recounted?
[...] Joanne’s post here, as well as onJack’s Newswatch, and get this news out. Elections Canada needs reform and it [...]
Sandy’s back!!!
CR at 11:03 – Sorry, your comment was in the spam bin. It’s out now. I deleted the second (duplicate) one.
Thanks for all the info.
I wondered what happened. I actually posted three times. I just want the information out there and that would be to encourage WAI to appeal this.
Goodness knows she is getting lots of info from here…I guess I better make sure she knows about this site and any other “write ups”
I just emailed WAI and gave her the link addresses to bloggers posts and encouraged her, if she could, to appeal. Whether she gets this email is another story. But I tried.
………..and then they wonder why people don’t get out to vote….What a load of crapapooie….The conservative party should immediately go to court to insure all votes are counted
Thanks for contacting Wai, CR.
Squiggy, I was thinking the same thing – that it’s little wonder the Canadian electorate is so cynical.
Not sure what is happening as Elections Canada have not updated their website to show the Dosanj recount results.
They are still listing it as “automatic judicial recount” and the status is “in Progress”.
It would seem to me that with an automatic recount, as opposed to one requested by the second-place candidate, the judge has less discretion over selecting which ballot boxes to open. Also, I think ALL the votes have to be recounted, not just the two main parties, since some may have been wrongly allocated to one of the minor parties.
On the subject of a relationship between Dosanjh and Justice Dohm, I think you need to remember that Dosanjh was provincial Attorney General for about 5 years before he took over as Premier, so it would have been normal for him to know and have relationships with various judges. In fact it would probably be difficult to find a judge he did NOT know personally.
I am shocked that a recount can be done with just a sample of the votes. Parliament dropped the ball on writing the elections act if they didn’t insist every ballot be checked.
I agree, Swift. We need some changes. Mary T itemized a lot of problems with the process too. Perhaps we should voice our concerns to our local MPs.
There is something definitely fishy with this recount. If elections Canada does not prove to Canadians that they are accountable in this situation then we must assume that some Canadians are more equal than others. Canadians deserve better.
Blogging Tories must unite to have this recount challenged.
Blogburst time!!!
Why even bother with a recount if not ALL ballots are not recounted? I believe the recount in Quebec found that one ballot box hadn’t even been counted while one was counted twice. How do we know that the same thing didn’t happen in Ujjal’s riding? Were all the spoiled ballots looked at?
Do you happen to have a link to that Quebec situation, Hunter? Thanks.
Keith Martin’s recount will take place Monday and Tuesday at the Empress Hotel in Victoria, no less. The judge has agreed to have 25 volunteers from the CPC and 25 from the LPC present at the recount. (I volunteered but they apparently had more than enough so they didn’t need me unfortunately !)
In addition, the Times Colonist, our local Canwest paper has sought permission in court and received it from the judge to witness the recount. This is apparently a first…
Jad, since you’re out there, could you please keep us posted on this recount? Specifically I’d like to know if every ballot is counted and who the presiding Justice is. Thanks so much.
38% of the popular vote and he’s the M.P. for the riding. Seems kind of ridiculous. And yes, there should have been a full recount.
Check out what ‘Beaver’ says in this BT Forum:
Some sources tell me that only 28 out of 184 ballot boxes were counted. The room was so small and stuffy that not everyone was able to fit inside. Some people even had to wait outside doing nothing. After Ujjal’s margin of victory dropped from 33 votes to 22 votes, the judge suddenly decided that it was time to call it quits when only 15% ballot boxes were counted.
Is it just me, or does something smell disgusting here? This recount is a joke, just to give Elections Canada face value for doing a “recount” to pretend that were actually productive…
I wish there was a way to verify this information.
…Yes, we need to bombard anyone who will listen with a demand to have all the polls in Vancouver South recounted!
Annie, thanks for your personal account. It is a rather frightening scenario.
The presiding judge for the Keith Martin recount is Justice R. Dean Wilson, who was appointed to the BC Supreme Court in 1994. Incidentally, Justice Dohm, who was appointed in February 1995, is also the Associate Chief Justice of the BC Supreme Court. So good luck in getting his decision overturned.
Both justices were appointed when Mike Harcourt (NDP) was Premier of BC, from 1991 – 1996. After various scandals, he was replaced by Glen Clark (also NDP), who after more scandals was replaced by guess who – U**** D****** (at the time NDP) in 2000. (Does anyone see a pattern here ?)Dosanjh was defeated by Gordon Campbell in May 2001 and his NDP party reduced to 2 seats in the Legislature.
Not sure I can give you any information as to how many votes actually get counted, but as I mentioned above, there will be a local reporter there, and since the paper made a big deal about getting permission to attend, I imagine it will be well covered.
Thanks for that, Jad. Hopefully the paper will have it well covered, as you say.
Thanks too to Conservative Reporter for digging up those links between Dosanjh and Dohm.
Is this proof that Elections Canada is corrupt? After reading all of this, it is hard to believe that this is happening in Canada? This is truly frightening and disgusting. Is this just the tip of the iceberg? I have lost all faith in Elections Canada.
Remember during the summer, even when parliament was recessed Fay?…when Paul Szabo and his band of merry Liberals had the Elections Canada official testifying…there sure seemed a hint there too of EC leaning too close to liberal mantra…I cannot remember what committee it was and for what now…but remember seeing it and feeling helpless about an office that was commissioned by parliament (how did it get to be corrupt?) –maybe we will gain insight and more remembrance of this testimony from joanne’s readership… hope so…
I wish we could sit down with PMSH for a short while and have a good chin wag……
dream on eh…
Fay, we seem to have a lot of questions and very few answers. I think as Canadian citizens we deserve those answers.
Why did Justice Dohm avoid having a full recount?
And does anyone know how these judges are chosen for recounts anyway? Who makes that decision?
why not just put a call in to the CPC? I’m pretty sure they employ folks to do the legwork and ask the same questions raised here?
Yes, I’m back! I read about this situation this morning and felt so helpless. And, that is what happens after you have had a blog. You have a place to go and let people know what is happening.
So, I re-parked my Cotm blog (which had just been in a holding pattern, never in any danger of disappearing)and it was back up in only a couple of hours.
Mind you, it still is not getting on the BT aggreggator — that can take up to 48 hours.
But, I realized I needed to have my blog for just such as this occasion.
Well done to everyone.
CR, awesome investigative information there.
As soon as I finish this comment, I am going to e-mail National Newswatch with all the URL’s. Then, we can watch to see if anything transpires.
Later this evening, after my dinner guests leave, I will also post something at Jack’s Newswatch.
This folks has got to be the main purpose for the blogosphere — accountability without intimidation — meaning, no one is going to lose their job because of this expose.
I have been out for a while. Is there any danger in contacting our MP’s? I e-mailed Ms. Young this AM in support and encouraging her to fight on. From reading the posts, this is a dangerous and touchy situation.
Handle WITH CARE!
Bec — You are absolutely correct. As many know, I worked for a Harris era MPP in Ontario. Do not write your MP about this because he or she can do or say nothing.
This is an Elections Canada regulation and to talk about a judge is opening the door to a libel suit — which is why I won’t put that info on my blog.
The regulation clearly says “the judge’s decision is final” and then there is the independence factor.
No, what we have to do is make enough noise that the judge and/or Elections Canada decide on their own to do a more thorough recount.
Which is why a blogburst is a great idea. It may get results.
Just my opinion.
Thanks for you help, Sandy! We need to get this out to the public so we can get some answers.
Sol, it’s probably not a bad idea to contact Conservative MPs ‘off the record.’
Bec, I think we need to be careful that we don’t accuse anyone of anything unlawful, but I think we do deserve answers to our questions. I’m just not sure where to try to get those answers.
I’m not a Conservative but I believe in justice and where there is a difference of only 33 votes, a competent judge should could recount every ballot. This should be appealed. The judge is either stupid or lazy or both.
Over and out.
We should also offer congrats to the Liberal MP (Alexandra Mendes) who, after the recount, took a seat away from the Bloc in Quebec. No matter your political stripe, a treasonist party seat lost is a good thing.
…No, what we have to do is make enough noise that the judge and/or Elections Canada decide on their own to do a more thorough recount…
Good advice, Sandy. Thanks.
No matter your political stripe, a treasonist party seat lost is a good thing.
Agreed. One less seat for the separatists is a good thing indeed.
If the judicial recount is the LAST count,and there is no going back, it should be the most thorough.
If the rules allow a sampling on the final count, the rules need to be re-written ASAP.
The Canada Elections Act states:
304. (1) The judge shall conduct the recount by adding the number of votes reported in statements of the vote or by counting the valid ballots or all of the ballots returned by the deputy returning officers or the Chief Electoral Officer.
Steps to be taken by the judge
(3) At a recount, the judge shall
(a) count the ballots in the manner prescribed for a deputy returning officer or a special ballot officer;
(b) verify or correct, if necessary, each statement of the vote, and
From Part 12 describing the counting of the ballots by a deputy returning officer:
283. (3)
(f) examine each ballot, show the ballot to each person who is present…
My reading of this and the Elections Canada handbook for judicial recounts is that the judge can just confirm that the tally sheets from each poll are added correctly, or he can recount all the ballots. Once a recount of the ballots is started the legislation and the handbook provide no justification for abandoning the recount part way through and then declaring a winner. From 304. (3) (b) above the legislation requires the judge to verify or correct each statement of the vote. There is one statement of the vote for each poll. Without counting the ballots, how can the judge verify the statement of the vote for that poll? I think there is an excellent case to be made that the judge in this case failed to comply with the requirements of the Elections Act.
In case you are not sleeping and worried sick, I am currently reading CBC.ca comments right out of Vancouver and they are down and dirty. Very specific.
Relax and have a good snooze!
==Expert on elections, scandals and spending==
John Courtney took your questions on elections, campaign financing and the law
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080422.welections_discussion0423/BNStory/National/home/?pageRequested=2
Jade Buchanan from Halifax writes: Dr. Courtney, [these allegations of questionable] campaign spending may be damaging to the relatively positive reputation of Canada’s electoral system. Do you agree with this statement and, if so, what solutions would you suggest? Thank you
John Courtney: Any allegations of electoral impropriety (whether proved in court or not) are bound to “damage” an electoral system. The form that that harm can take varies, of course, on the severity of the disputed act, the “collateral damage” it may cause to individual and institutional reputations, and its timing in the election cycle. One possibility, of course, is that Elections Canada may have erred in proceeding as it has. In such a case, the reputation of a respected electoral institution may have been severely harmed. Another possibility is that coming, as it were, part way through the life of this Parliament (and as a minority Parliament its life could end at any time) the allegations of a breach of the election law by the Conservatives could harm the party at the subsequent election. As well, the fallout could take its toll on voter interest in the election and on voter participation on election day. Voter turnout rates could be expected to fall if a sizeable number of electors became disaffected with politics generally and “all” parties and politicians specifically.
…I think there is an excellent case to be made that the judge in this case failed to comply with the requirements of the Elections Act.
Thanks for that, Swift. I hope that Wai Young launches an appeal.
Bec, thanks for that CBC reference! I’m going to quote a few of the comments here to show that we’re not the only ones thinking that the way this particular recount was handled leaves something to be desired:
aaargh wrote:Posted 2008/10/24
at 9:07 PM ET:
I am by no means a fan of the Conservatives, but how can they possibly have a legitimate recount without opening all the boxes and counting ALL the ballots? What the hell is that? Why is that even an option? Does that mean that they don’t count ALL the ballots during the actual election count?
I would think that sentence deserves a little more explanation, CBC. Or could some knowledgeable poster do the CBC’s job for them and explain it to me?
————————-
Karol posted a comment on 2008/10/24 at 9:44 PM ET quoting this article from Link. Well worth the read.
————————–
Firefly Delta wrote:Posted 2008/10/24
at 10:36 PM ET
Maybe get the real story out CBC:
” Tory candidate Wai Young said she was disappointed because Associate Chief Justice Partrick Dohm, who was in charge of the recount, elected not to open all the ballot boxes.
”
That was a good start, but lets face it, 23 of 179 polls is not a recount, and you have to wonder how this Judge could elect not to finish the job after the margin had decreased to by 33% but so few of the polls were recounted.
How is that judicial? How is that a recount? The voters of Vancouver South deserve better justice, and methinks better Judges.
—————————–
More:
T Lee Humphrey wrote:Posted 2008/10/25
at 4:07 AM ET:
Putting aside the politics of the situation for a moment I must say as someone who I thought was pretty well informed and educated about our political system I’m certainly surprised and dismayed to learn that a judicial recount does not include recounting every ballot.
Democracy demands accuracy and as we’ve seen on a larger scale in the US when you don’t fully count every ballot ill feelings linger and the winning candidate is never fully excepted or seen as legitimate therefore regardless of who you want to win I believe all Canadians and specifically riding members should demand that a full recount of every ballot be done by another judge so that the public can be assured that the candidate that received the most votes is sent to Ottawa to represent the riding.
Hopefully there is a method to ensure all votes are counted when a race remains this close and that elections Canada steps in to ensure the accuracy of the riding results so that the parties concerned aren’t seen as trying to influence the outcome.
——————————-
And this one is very important. Check out the whole comment but I’m just quoting part of it here:
Brusmit wrote:Posted 2008/10/25
at 10:38 AM E
…From Elections Canada website
http://www.elections.ca/content.asp?section=loi&document=index&dir=jud&lang=e&textonly=false
2.7.2.1 Judge counts “all” the ballots personally
“Where a judge is proceeding with the judicial recount by counting the ballots personally, subsection 304(3) of the Act applies…….
In relation to special ballots, the judge shall examine “each” ballot, call out the name of the candidate for whom it has been marked, and ask that a note be made on the tally sheet below the name of the candidate for whom the vote was cast, for the purpose of arriving at the total number of votes cast for each candidate. The special ballot papers should be placed in separate piles for each candidate. A tally sheet that may be used at a judicial recount is reproduced in Appendix C (Form 4) of this handbook. [278(3), 304(3)]
I would say that this backs up Swift’s comment.
This one is also worth reading, but I’m not going to quote it here. Just read it.
CheckIn wrote:Posted 2008/10/25
at 12:26 AM ET
This one sums it up quite well:
Marty Mac wrote:Posted 2008/10/25
at 10:32 PM ET
He did not win in the recount as all ballots were not counted in the partial recount by the judge so I guess one could say that he was appointed. If a recount is called would it not be prudent to count all the ballots cast? This partial recount is allowable under the elections act. I can see this one going up the chain to the Supreme Court.
[...] Well, it appears that is not the case. If you haven’t been following the uproar over at Blue Like You, you should [...]
Just to let everyone know that I got picked up last night by National Newswatch which means my links to here are getting alot of interest. We wanted attention and we are getting it. Let’s hope something will be done about it — this week!
My thanks to Swift — I just added his or her comment in my Sunday update.
http://crux-of-the-matter.com/2008/10/25/vancouver-souths-election-recount-only-partial/
“This one is also worth reading, but I’m not going to quote it here. Just read it.”
I can’t seem to find that quote Jo – the comments go from 12:24 to 12:35. Would it have been taken down??
Bloggers….note that Mr. Harper has taken Elections Canada to court re their assertions the last election in and out scheme was illegal(Liberal’s accusatons). The Ethics Committee was a farce and the over the top swat team raid of Conservative Party headquarters the day before EU lawyers was to give their documents to the Conservative lawyers, was really questionable action. The news media blew it up non stop. From March to the Election call, Liberals did nothing but throw mud at the C’s in the HOC. No leader, no platform, no interest in Canadian unity or honesty. Wish Harper had got the majority he needs to keep cleaning up the bureaucracies.. He did it in Citizenship & Immigration……Keep pushing for proper recounts and you are right on about poorly trained workers at elections…I worked them for 20 years…disgusting how some people got appointed and had no understanding of the process.
P.S. Further to voting procedures…the advance poll boxes were taken home by the Poll Returning Officer. A scrutineer noticed when the box was brought into the Election for counting inclusion, it looked to have been opened. This also was reported somewhere in Quebec. Did anyone else hear of this? an absolute no-no that the sealing tapes are tampered with. Many scrutineer’s are hesitant to call for explanations, even though that is their job for being there…they just don’t understand how serious this business is to our precious democracy.
Flashback to House of Commons when opposition parties continuously criticized the Government for declaring a lack of confidence in Elections Canada. The opposition parties supported Elections Canada. If a candidate is elected by counting all ballots on voting day, then a recount must include the recounting of all ballots cast on voting day. I’m still shaking my head.
Voting system in Canada “better” than in Australia as we can always resort to stuffing of ballot boxes
http://kerplonka.blogspot.com/2008/10/rights-and-elections-respect-low-voter.html
“Rights and elections: respect the low voter turnout!”
……
The other option people throw around at times like this are Australian-style mandatory voting. I’m sorry, but that, to me, screams of surrender and defeat. I love the relative freedom this country allows us, and I’ll be damned if we sacrifice it by selling out our freedoms to choose [not] to vote one way under the guise of trying to make people participate in the choice of democracy. If people want to vote, they should be brought around by intelligent arguments from the “pro” side. Otherwise, we’re acting like losers in the face of the most popular option for Canadian ballots.
Posted by Jarrett at 12:07 PM
=========================================
There is nothing wrong with allowing people not to vote as long as there is a mechanism in place that would register their choice.
System where eligible voters go unaccounted for is open to electoral fraud as it allows for stuffing of ballot boxes with votes that were not cast by eligible voters.
Electoral rules in Canada are such that if a vote has signature of a person that voted on it such vote is rejected as a spoiled ballot, even if you cannot read such signature.
Just ask yourself; why such rule exists??
When you show up at polling station you have to show your ID with current address in order to vote. They give you vote and cross out your name from the list so you cannot vote again but nobody asks you to sign for your vote. Ask yourself why is that???
Not every candidate can arrange to have hundred or more scrutinizers at all polling stations when votes are being counted.When race is tight it is easy to arrange that some polling stations where there are no scrutinizers for unlucky candidate are late with their count and what stops bunch of crooks at polling station from crossing names of people who did not show up to vote and cast votes on their behalf for “their” candidate to make him or her win???
Secret (anonymous) vote rule is to protect voter from retaliation by the state and not to protect crooks from cooking ballots.
When there is a contest of election result all we do is recount votes, we never contact voters to verify if in fact they went to polling station and cast their votes, there is no mechanism in place to conduct such verification.
When you consider these things it might as well be that Australians are way ahead of us in democracy.
AG, it’s still there. I’m not going to copy all of it, because I have no idea as to the truth of the allegations, but it ends this way:
…And now this, 22 votes differential ( 32,000 votes cast just between two top rivals!, ie 0.0007% of competing votes ) and Justice Patrick Dohm does not neccesiate openning all ballot boxes, not to even mention checking validity ol the votes.
And then CBC and other Canadian media wonder why people don’t bother to vote? How do you define hypocrisy? What is in it for this Justice, is it really a justice or perhaps something more tamgible? Just food for thoughts…
We still live in one of the best places in the world, let’s hope is stays this way for a bit longer.
I admire CBC for keeping it up so far.
Good stuff about National Newswatch, Sandy!
Oh, and Swift is a he.
Bruce, much as I appreciate you commenting here, the nature of that particular one puts me in the difficult position of having to decide if I should allow it to stand or not.
You see, we have no proof that the judge favoured the Liberal incumbent. We are only wondering why he wouldn’t call for a full recount.
Too bad that I have to make these kinds of judgements. I guess I’ll let it go for now unless I get some complaints.
I understand your concern Joanne, edit it like this if you like;
I think the judge erred on this one, all ballot boxes should have been opened and counted.
Dohm was the judge that had the contents of the search warrant sealed on the raid of the B.C. Legislature concerning the sale of B.C. Rail to CN, which led to the charges against Basi and Virk who were working for Gordon Campbell and the B.C. Liberals.
Many think that Judge Dohm was protecting Campbell, we’ll see.
Thanks, Bruce. I appreciate the do-over. LOL! I simply deleted your initial comment and corrected the typo for you.
I am very grateful that you and others here understand what a tight rope we walk regarding ‘free speech’ in this so-called democracy of ours.
It bloody well is time we woke up though.
This post is now on National Newswatch right under mine. The message is getting out. Bravo to all the readers who have gotten involved just by leaving comments. And, remember, for every person who leaves a comment, there are twenty or more who don’t.
Most, like us, are just flabbergasted that Elections Canada allows a partial recount. It is an appalling thought when every vote is supposed to be counted — not just on the day of the vote, but for recounts as well. That’s why there are recounts? Right? We’ll see what the CPC does with this tomorrow.
From Crux of the Matter poster David;
# David Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
An Indo-Canadian Newspaper reports today on this riding’s election:
“The LINK has also learned that there were many irregularities in voting in the riding with one particular poll – which had the maximum of 500 votes to be cast, but allegedly had a final count of more than 900 votes with more than 800 allegedly credited to the Liberal candidate.: Ref: http://www.thelinkpaper.ca/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1224526729&archive=&start_from=&ucat=1
This is geting messy. Look for an opposing smear, coming soon to a blog near you…
Yikes! Outrageous is right! And we’re doing a recount tomorrow in my riding (Keith Martin vs Troy DeSouza). Between Elections Canada and polling research firms I’m getting very annoyed.
How about famous statement by
Dr. John C. Courtney,
Scholar in Residence, Diefenbaker Canada Centre & Professor Emeritus of Political Studies,
in
“Expert on elections, scandal, and spending”
The Globe and Mail, Apr 22, 2008:
” Any allegations of electoral impropriety (whether proved in court or not) are bound to “damage” an electoral system. …”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080422.welections_discussion0423/BNStory/National/home/?pageRequested=1
1)
PET Government, 32nd Parliament:
CHRÉTIEN, The Right Hon. Joseph Jacques Jean, P.C., C.C., Q.C., B.A., LL.L., LL.D
Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada 1980.03.03 – 1982.09.09
http://tinyurl.com/5v288n
2)
The Honourable Patrick D. Dohm
Associate Chief Justice of the Supreme Court
Appointed Supreme Court Justice May 15, 1980
Appointed Associate Chief Justice of the Supreme Court February 7, 1995
http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/sc/presiders/
=====================================
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/10/24/bc-vancouver-recount-dosanjh.html
Dosanjh retains Vancouver South MP seat after recount
Last Updated: Friday, October 24, 2008 | 8:48 PM ET
The Canadian Press
… after a judicial recount Friday showed he had won — albeit with a shrunken margin of 22 votes instead of 33.
The victory was confirmed by regional Elections Canada official Donna Ceele.
Tory candidate Wai Young said she was disappointed because Associate Chief Justice Partrick Dohm, who was in charge of the recount, elected not to open all the ballot boxes. . .
Karol, are you writing under a pseudonym now? Just curious. I’ve got two comments awaiting moderation and they sure look similar…
Still trying to assess the relevance.
Hi Joanna – NO, I am NOT KK, for God’s sake!
can we ‘talk’ on e-mail ?
can we ‘talk’ on e-mail ?
By all means. My email addy is available at the top of the main page on a tab labelled ‘contact’.
Both comments have been allowed, BTW.
Ujjal should be happy he [allegedly] has such good Liberal friends in high places. Justice Dohm [allegedly] is a partner in the firm Dohm Jaffer Jeraj. The Jaffer being the one and only Senator Mobina Jaffer, a Liberal Senator from BC. The lead dropped by one third. Dohm [allegedly] stops the count. Hmmm. This is something that could [allegedly] only happen in Florida or in a third world tin pot democracy. Dohm [allegedly] has really smeared the impartiality of the legal system. Justice was not blind here. Rather, it was peaking through the blindfold.
[Edited: Remarks are Rafe's opinion - Not the opinion of the blog administrator]
Again, Rafe, I would really appreciate it if you could rephrase that comment so as not to directly accuse anyone of an illegal act.
Bruce at 2:02 pm had a similar comment but he managed to say it in such a way so as not cause potential problems. I’ll give you a chance to do that, or else I’ll have to do it myself. Thanks.
The real issue here is that we need to know why only a partial recount was done.
[...] Faith in the Process One of my previous posts regarding the peculiar way the recount was handled in Vancouver South is getting a bit cumbersome (as is this [...]
One correction, I’m a Green, not Liberal.
I think they should open all of the boxes in a race this close, and count every ballot. Yet this isn’t any different than what happened in Florida 2000, from what I can recall. They didn’t have a full recount there either.
One correction, I’m a Green, not Liberal.
Oops. Sorry, Saskboy. So why are you a Liblogger? (Just curious)
I think they should open all of the boxes in a race this close, and count every ballot.
Yes, this is a non-partisan issue when you come right down to it. There is a recount coming up in KW soon, and if every ballot isn’t counted here, I’ll be very upset, no matter what the outcome. Otherwise, why do we bother to vote???
Just had to comment because there are SO many things wrong/misunderstood here:
Quoting MaryT
October 25th, 2008 at 9:16 am
“Election Canada must start doing a better training program for anyone working at the polls. Most people hired for this job are recruited after the Writ is dropped.” THAT’S THE LAW.
“How more votes can be cast than there are voters is beyond me. I do know from experience that one can be sworn in, and it would be possible for this person to vote in more than one place, going to where they were on the list and then produce utitility bills or such, and photo ID to vote at another.” YOU MUST PROVE YOUR IDENTITY AND ADDRESS AND CAN ONLY VOTE AT THE POLL FOR THAT CORRESPONDS WITH YOUR ADDRESS. SURE, YOU COULD TAKE AN OATH AT A POLL THAT ISN’T YOURS, BUT THAT’S BREAKING THE LAW.
“People that have moved from one area to another could do this. You check off on your tax return if you wish to be on the electors list, and that address on your return is what goes on the list.
I think that the elected MP of a riding has some say as to who poll officials are.” NO, THEY ARE HIRED BY THE RO, WHO IS HIRED BY ELECTIONS CANADA. ROS USED TO BE HIRED BY THE GOVERNMENT OF THE DAY, BUT THE LAW CHANGED TWO YEARS AGO.
“I also know from experience that many tax filers are refusing to check that box on the return, as they are afraid of what EC or Rev Can are doing with that info. Everything about you is on that return.” ELECTIONS CANADA AND REVENUE CANADA ARE ONLY ALLOWED TO USE THE INFORMATION FOR PRESCRIBED PURPOSES. INFORMATION IS NOT SHARED WITH OTHER DEPARTMENTS.
It is up to each candidate to make sure they have scrutineers at the polls but lots don’t.
Regardless, is Ujjal is seriously thinking of running for Dion’s job he better think again. With a 22 vote questionable win, that will haunt him in a federal election.
“Isn’t it funny that Canada and the US often sent representatives to foreign countries to oversee their elections, but no one oversees the elections in Canada or the USA.” ACTUALLY, THE OAS OFTEN OBSERVES CANADIAN AND AMERICAN ELECTIONS AND WILL BE SENDING A TEAM TO THE US NEXT WEEK.
“Fraud is happening in both of them.” THERE ARE VERY FEW, IF ANY, DOCUMENTED CASES OF FRAUD IN CANADA.
Anyway, we will defeat Ujjal next time as people will know that every vote is important. Wonder if he will vote on NO, and bills that could send him back to those voters.
NinOttawa, thanks for your input. Am I correct in assuming that you coming from a position of authority here? i.e. someone in the know? i.e. E.C.?
Because if so, I have some more questions for you.
I just pay attention.
Fair enough. Thanks for setting us straight.
I felt the same way when Harper appointed Fortier to the Senate.
Chris, I was disappointed about the way that was handled too.
But personally, I think it is quite a different situation.
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