The National Post is providing a whole week’s presentation of various views on the topic of Morgentaler being named to the Order of Canada on July 1.
The debate also continues on other MSM venues and blogs. Letters to the editor poured in at the time, and are still trickling in two weeks later. Many editorials have been published on both sides.
OC Medals started being returned since some of the recipients or present medal holders felt that the significance had been diminished if not entirely tarnished.
NB Tory Lady has compiled a list on the right sidebar of her blog. Returnees include:
Former Lieutenant Governor of New Brunswick Gilbert Finn
Monsignor A.J. Goski
Madonna House foundress Catherine Doherty
Father Lucien Larre
Frank Chauvin
Three anonymous recipients
Was there an underlying reason for initiating this firestorm beyond the alleged recognition of an aging Canadian who made so many ‘sacrifices’ to make sure women had access to um, so-called necessary health care?
To have the announcement made on Canada Day, which is usually a time for building bridges and promoting national unity seems a bit puzzling unless it was deliberately intended to provoke a reaction. Which it certainly did.
Or perhaps it was intended to shove a politically-correct edict from the Left down our throats at the taxpayer’s expense.
I think the latter. I believe this was a not so subtle move to try to say that just like gay marriage, the debate is over folks! Get over it.
Well, some people like myself have learned to live with gay marriage. In fact, I certainly see the encouragement of monogamy as being beneficial to society.
As for Morgentaler debacle and the future of the OC itself, do what you want with it. Keep it or get rid of it. I really don’t care.
It’s meaningless to me.
In fact, I’m fine with letting an old man have his moment in the limelight before he meets his maker.
But I will never, ever accept the status quo regarding abortion in Canada, which is a pathetic state of limbo with no law at all; enabled by gutless politicians too weak to even say the word.
* * * *
Recommended reading : This is an absolute must read by David Warren – Nation of Noodles.
H/T to The Great Pumpkin.
Margaret Somerville’s Letter to the National Post is also worth checking out – Do Canadians really support abortion?
Jonathan Kay – The Order of Canada is ridiculous.
I’m appalled that someone who has such low regard for human life is celebrated with an award.
Totally agree with you as regards the OC. When it is awarded to a TV newscaster and a wigmaker for the Stratford Theatre company, who really cares who gets it.
But I don’t think it’s entirely fair to call politicians “gutless”. You are as awate as anyone of the kind of firestorm that would erupt if PMSH tried to do anything about abortion, and don’t look for any action from the Liberals because they know it would split their party in two. The media try to cover it up, but there are a number of Liberals MPs who are staunchly against abortion.
I think what we have right now is a typical Canadian compromise. No politician is willing to walk the plank on this, Canadians themselves are deeply conflicted from the comments on this blog and others, and so we all try not to think about it.
Politicians are not entirely stupid, and I don’t think you will see any changes to the law until there is a clearer consensus among Canadians. Any other course of action would be doomed from the start, would be incredibly divisive along both ethnic, age, and gender lines, and would simply be suicide.
Thanks for weighing in here, Anne. Many Canadians share your feeling of disgust.
Jad, you mentioned that the present government’s hands are tied, and I do agree with you that it would be political suicide to try to bring in any kind of legislation regarding abortion – even attempting to limit abortion to the first or second trimester would be met with great howls of protest.
Therefore the consensus would have to come from Canadians who finally get off the fence and start bugging their MPs all the time about this.
Im also sick and tired of hearing about ‘Mort’gentaler. Add Kadr and his mom to that list along with St.Obama.
It’s very boring news wise (Im a political junkie).It’s all Dion’s fault for not going into an election sooner.;-) (The up side is that we can all laugh at his Tax shaft but it’s also wearing real thin).
The US dollar continuing to fall and the world tittering on financial collapse is putting “spice” in the news but that’s too depressing. I’d rather have Dion soon pull the plug so we can have our election instead. It won’t happen till the fall at the very earliest.
It’s very boring news wise (Im a political junkie).
I hear ya.
Maybe we should turn off our computers and enjoy that beautiful sunshine while we can.
Yes, agree with you that the Order is now a joke and meaningless.
He’ll get his ultimate reward when he meets his maker.
How much has malpractice insurance costs affected whether a doctor will or wont do abortions. How is that wrongful birth case coming. And, there are also many doctors opting out of delivering babies, with the cost of MPI a major reason. Giving M the award has opened the whole argument of abortion again and to the liberals surprise, there are still many opposed to it. However, one stat I read from the US is that abortion is down in many places and more unmarried girls are having and keeping their babies.
All the fuss about no abortion facilities in PEI, well, in many places in Canada there is no access to cancer clinics, heart surgery, hip replacements and so many other procedures. One has to travel to receive them. Can any of the above procedures be had in PEI, I bet they can.
He’ll get his ultimate reward when he meets his maker.
I wonder if he believes in an afterlife? If so, I wonder if he has ever thought about meeting all those little souls whose lives he was responsible for ending?
Joanne will you get outta my head please
I wonder if he believes in an afterlife? If so, I wonder if he has ever thought about meeting all those little souls whose lives he was responsible for ending?
All last night I was thinking that which you have just posted..
.. isn’t the universe awesome in
spreading thought… hehehe
While I don’t agree with abortion, I believe that calling Dr. Morgentaler a vile murderer, as I’ve seen in some places, doesn’t advance this issue. Be that as it may …
“Therefore the consensus would have to come from Canadians who finally get off the fence and start bugging their MPs all the time about this.”
However, it seems that the majority of Canadians are content to let certain things ride. They appear to get riled up only when something affects them personally. Also, the younger the age range, the more the credo of “don’t impose your morality on me” prevails, as if “morality” were a strictly individual set of values completely disconnected from the rest of humanity.
It is unfortunate, but some doors that have been opened will unfortunately never be closed again – at least in my lifetime, anyway.
On the other hand – not that I welcome this other trend – the number of teen pregnancies which come to term seems to be up. The “Juno” effect at work?
And, as Jad said “Any other course of action would be doomed from the start, would be incredibly divisive along both ethnic, age, and gender lines, and would simply be suicide.”
The only possible route, IMO, is to inform the public about what the rules are re: abortion in other democracies, especially those considered as “progressive.”
Do they allow abortion at any time, or are there any limits set?
Joanne will you get outta my head please
Heh. Well, we know what’s right. It may take Dr. Morgentaler a bit longer to discover the truth.
The only possible route, IMO, is to inform the public about what the rules are re: abortion in other democracies, especially those considered as “progressive.”
Do they allow abortion at any time, or are there any limits set?
Gabby, as far as I know, Canada is the only so-called ‘civilized’ country in the entire world which has no law whatsoever regarding abortion.
If anyone can prove me wrong, I’m all ears.
We really shouldn’t be lecturing others on human rights.
I’m just going to say that one more time because I get a lot of hits from people searching google for key words such as ‘abortion’ and ‘Canada’ and ‘limits’.
So, if you are doing some research and would like to know what the limits are in Canada regarding abortion, the answer is NONE!
Thank you for indulging me on that one.
I just found a Wiki site about abortion laws and restrictions around the world.
…Abortion laws vary widely by country, ranging from Chile, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Malta, and Vatican City, which ban the procedure entirely, to Canada, which places no restrictions on the provision of abortion whatsoever….
I understand that he had been reject twice before, under a Libral government. It is also my underestanding that once rejected, on the initial applicion, the nominee’s name isto be deleted from any futher consideration. Just one pass at the “snowflake.” That’s it.
If this is in fact the truth, how did Hoverthaler get a THIRD chance at the “flake,” and succeed, to boot? With a Conservatve in the driver’s seat?
‘ts to ponder
tj
t.e.&o.e.
Last week, we had the extended family over to the house for dinner in celebration of my sister’s birthday. Much to my absolute horror, just as we sat down to eat, my girlfriend, bless her heart, wanted to strike up a dinner conversation and asked what we all felt about the Order of Canada. Usually, to be on the safe side we always avoid topics related to politics, religion, and language issues.
So, by the time that it got to me, it was an even split in opinions. My response was simple, not passing any judgment on the issue of abortion, i felt that he should not have received the award because he is such a polarizing figure in our countries history.
Abortion is one of the most divisive policy issues in Canada, and as a result, we have no regulations or restriction on it’s provision. In truth, I doubt that we ever will unless people are willing to meet somewhere in the middle on the debate.
Joanne, I believe I read somewhere he is an atheist. Believing in nothing after death probably makes his grisly work easier to do.
Boy is he in for a surprise!
He can join all those suicide bombers who discovered there were no virgins waiting for them.
Ouch!
Yes, I am sick of the debate. Let’s move on people. No minds are going to be changed here.
I just want to address something else that Gabby mentioned:
However, it seems that the majority of Canadians are content to let certain things ride. They appear to get riled up only when something affects them personally. Also, the younger the age range, the more the credo of “don’t impose your morality on me” prevails, as if “morality” were a strictly individual set of values completely disconnected from the rest of humanity.
But isn’t the Left imposing their morality on us? I don’t think it has to do with age completely. I know many young people who are pro-life.
And if we just go and mind our own business, at what point do we stop or start caring about others?
Perhaps a premie with serious health defects? An old person who is dying and has no idea where they are? Should we just hurry along the process?
How do we make these kinds of decisions? On what basis?
“But isn’t the Left imposing their morality on us?”
I don’t think that it is a question of the “left” imposing morality on anyone – it is a question of laws (or in the case the lack thereof) being reflective of the will of the majority of Canadians.
Thanks for the Wiki link, Joanne.
Here’s another one on “abortion in Canada” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada
and “abortion by country” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_about_abortion_by_country
Please understand, I’m not rising in defence of abortion, nor to condone Dr. Morgentaler’s decisions. But …
Is his being an atheist relevant?
I wonder about this … one would think that a survivor of the horrors of the Holocaust would have a reverence for life.
On the other hand, that same unimaginable experience may have influenced him to pursue what he views as his life’s mission.
Maybe the fact he’s an atheist is a result of those experiences?
I don’t know. The little I know about Dr. Morgentaler is what I’ve read in the media recently.
Even someone as admired and honoured as another Holocaust survivor, Elie Wiesel, said: “I was the accuser, God the accused. My eyes were open and I was alone – terribly alone in a world without God and without man.” (from Wiki)
Again, while I do not condone the actions, I do not understand the man’s motivation.
And if one alludes to his answering to his maker, then the women who underwent those procedures must also face their maker.
Abortion is one of the most divisive policy issues in Canada, and as a result, we have no regulations or restriction on it’s provision. In truth, I doubt that we ever will unless people are willing to meet somewhere in the middle on the debate.
I agree with you there, PNR, but not here:
it is a question of laws (or in the case the lack thereof) being reflective of the will of the majority of Canadians.
I don’t think the majority of Canadians are content with the status quo, i.e. no law at all. There have been several polls out lately and many reflect that feeling. I’ll try to find some examples later.
Also, the Left is in control of this country anyway. The will of the majority doesn’t count.
Liberal judges are in control of the courts and Liberals are in control of the Senate, and the Left is in the majority in the H of C collectively.
Joanne, you said: “But isn’t the Left imposing their morality on us?”
Each side accuses their opponent of imposing its set of values on the other, as if there were no universal shared values. This fragmentation of society, where individuals state that they don’t have to abide by the other guys’ rules, cannot help but be heightened by divisive issues like the abortion question.
Policy not Rhetoric said: “… laws (or in the case the lack thereof) being reflective of the will of the majority of Canadians.”
I don’t know if that is truly the case. I know some people who willingly and knowingly lie when they’re surveyed. When I’ve asked why, they laugh, saying: “just to throw them off.”
I don’t know that a few people doing that would necessarily skew the results of such surveys, but I would trust an actual referendum rather than opinion polls.
I think a previous comment of mine got caught in the filter because I included two Wiki links, one about “abortion in Canada” and another about “abortion by country.”
Here’s the rest of the comment – sans links – and please forgive the repetition, if any.
Please understand, I’m not rising in defence of abortion, nor to condone Dr. Morgentaler’s decisions. But …
Is his being an atheist relevant?
I wonder about this … one would think that a survivor of the horrors of the Holocaust would have a reverence for life.
On the other hand, that same unimaginable experience may have influenced him to pursue what he views as his life’s mission.
Maybe the fact he’s an atheist is a result of those experiences?
I don’t know. The little I know about Dr. Morgentaler is what I’ve read in the media recently.
Even someone as admired and honoured as another Holocaust survivor, Elie Wiesel, said: “I was the accuser, God the accused. My eyes were open and I was alone – terribly alone in a world without God and without man.” (from Wiki)
Again, while I do not condone the actions, I do not understand the man’s motivation.
And if one alludes to his answering to his maker, then the women who underwent those procedures must also face their maker.
Liberal judges are in control of the courts and Liberals are in control of the Senate, and the Left is in the majority in the H of C collectively.
And how did this happen……b/c the majority of Canadians have historically voted Liberal, which in turn gave the sitting Liberal PM of the day the ability to appoint both Senators and judges. If the Conservatives win a majority, then they will be a position to do the exact same thing.
As I have stated in earlier posts, I am not in favor of the system as it currently is. Think that if we are going to have a senate, it should be elected.
We have heard liberal PMs state, Canadian values over and over again, without paying attention to what values the left consider canadian. We have never had a vote on abortion, ssm, the Charter, or anything else that is supposed to be a cdn value. The media has done a great job in brainwashing us. Our years of being passive and turning the other cheek has led to this. But, it is our problem, and I think things are slowly starting to backfire on the lefts definition of canadian values. Blogs will be the salvation of destroying the myths of the leftist media, and leftist ideas. It will be a long hard fight but it will be worth it.
I think a previous comment of mine got caught in the filter…
Sorry Gabby. You’re right. It’s been unleashed now.
Interesting discussion going on here and I appreciate the civility.
I’ll be responding to some of this shortly.
“Sorry Gabby. You’re right. It’s been unleashed now.”
No problem. Actually, it’s my fault, for including two links.
Again, excuse the double post.
If abortion were not covered under health care in Canada, and people had to pay for it, I think the stat’s on abortion would shift dramatically. Women would opt to carrying their child to term…or be on the pill or a host of other birth control methods would be practiced. Of course the Left would argue it would create an underground movement…probably back room botched proceedures, etc,… placing more women at risk… but the morning after pill could just as easily address this if it was made available instead of a D&C…and it would tie up a heck of alot fewer OR’s in an already taxed system.
I personally only agree with abortion in a few cases… if you know the child is going to be extremely disadvantaged then it’s the parents choice(an extremely hard one when you want a child to be sure), the case of rape (no brainer for many people), or in some medical instances where it’s known early on that the mothers health would be so compromised that there’s a strong likelyhood neither mom nor child would survive a term pregnancy…but those people in most cases already know they are potentially high risk and would be making an educated be it a very difficult decision.
Last I checked it’s about $4-$6 of a box of “wraps” at the drug store… if you can’t afford that then keep it in your pants cause you sure as hell won’t be able to afford to raise a child in this country.
Another thought if there ever was a Law regarding this…
after the second abortion where it’s obviously being used as a form of birth control, sterilization should be a consideration and offered… take them out of the gene pool…
A simple solution for the entire thing would be to define Life as begining at conception rather then at birth…or delete the Liberal added clause to the law completely with the “not withstanding clause”…
After all, what is “birth” today given children can survive with modern medical tech as early on as 24 weeks…those children may have a very high mortality risk and many potential health problems later on in life…but there are those that beat the odds…
Wonderful article by Robert Fulford in The National Post on Tuesday (Section B1) which is about the late liberal film critic Pauline Kael whose defence of trash cinema led in part to the erosion of good taste in cinema. I think her experience and words can apply to many other areas such as the undermining of marriage:
“When we championed trash culture we had no idea it would become the only culture.”
He also quotes the screenwriter Paul Schrader (Raging Bull, Taxi Driver) who said:”It was fun watching the applecart being upset, but now where do we go for apples?”
Sounds interesting, Nicola. Would you happen to know the title of the article? I’m having trouble locating it in the archives. Thanks.
Madonna House foundress Catherine Doherty
She didn’t knowingly give hers back, considering she’s no longer with us.
Rush has a good article in his stack of stuff today on why we have become a bunch of don’t get involved people. Fear of a lawsuit, and I think he is right. People sue today for the stupidist reasons, just because some tort lawyer can’t make a living practicing real law.
Just catching up here and I think I’ll start by responding to Gabby’s comments.
First of all thanks for the links, Gabby, and I don’t know why that got caught in the filter. It should accept two links. I’ll have to look into that.
And if one alludes to his answering to his maker, then the women who underwent those procedures must also face their maker.
You’ve made several profound statements and that is certainly one of them. I suppose it is not up to us to decide which is the greater evil. I do think though that women in this situation may be driven by desparation, fear, and lack of proper counselling whereas the abortionist knows exactly what he is doing and performs the deed routinely.
Each side accuses their opponent of imposing its set of values on the other, as if there were no universal shared values. This fragmentation of society, where individuals state that they don’t have to abide by the other guys’ rules, cannot help but be heightened by divisive issues like the abortion question.
Interesting. And I agree for the most part. However, you’re saying that there are in fact ‘universal shared values’? I’m trying to think of one. Certainly not regard for human life.
However, I understand that you are not condoning Morgentaler’s actions, and I really do appreciate your input here. In fact I’m really enjoying the debate. Thanks.
PNR – “As I have stated in earlier posts, I am not in favor of the system as it currently is. Think that if we are going to have a senate, it should be elected.”
I agree with that too. The other problem is that even the committee that makes the decisons about who gets the O of C is largely Liberal. Sure most people may have voted Liberal over the years (and I’m not certain about that anyway with first-past-the-post), but in a democratic society it’s not healthy if one party is always in power.
Im also sick and tired of hearing about ‘Mort’gentaler. Add Kadr and his mom to that list along with St.Obama.
Grind a Grit, I’m really sick about all this whining about Khadr too. I can’t even bring myself to do a post about him.
But if anyone wants to discuss it, please feel free.
She didn’t knowingly give hers back, considering she’s no longer with us.
Moebius, that’s true. However, here is an explanation by one of the people who returned it.
Joanne, I don’t really view our discussion as a “debate” in the traditional sense of pitting one POV against another. I prefer to think of it as explaining our positions to each other.
This is ideally what should go on in the blogosphere, but unfortunately experience tells us differently. E.g. I made the mistake of landing on a “progressive” blog and didn’t resist the urge to comment. Oh well, live and hopefully learn.
OK, back to the “debate”
You said: “… women in this situation may be driven by desperation, fear, and lack of proper counselling …” (Darn, I wish I knew how to italicize when posting comments!)
That may have been the case many years ago when information about contraception was not so readily available, or when women were subject to the strong influence of outside forces such as the parish priest, the county doctor, etc. But I doubt it’s still the case today in our western societies. So yes, IMO, women who choose abortion must share the responsibility.
You also said: “… you’re saying that there are in fact ‘universal shared values’? I’m trying to think of one. Certainly not regard for human life.”
Well, you sort of have me there.
Ideally, yes, there are ‘universal shared values’ like respect for human life, love of country, hearth, family, children, the traditional human rights, or … The Four Freedoms, as articulated by FDR (yes, a Democrat!) and as portrayed by Norman Rockwell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freedoms_%28Norman_Rockwell%29
Sometimes our fragmented society appears to be pulling in opposite directions, but I’d like to think we still share some of those values.
All in all, I believe my position is closer to Mred’s.
I don’t wish to impose my view on any woman, but likewise she should not expect me to bear some of the financial burden through my taxes, and consequently adversely affect an already over-extended healthcare system.
I think I’m starting to repeat myself, so I’ll leave it there.
This is ideally what should go on in the blogosphere, but unfortunately experience tells us differently. E.g. I made the mistake of landing on a “progressive” blog and didn’t resist the urge to comment. Oh well, live and hopefully learn.
I hear you. Pointless, isn’t it? Commenting on a Prog blog I mean.
I see where you’re coming from about the shared responsibility.
Sometimes our fragmented society appears to be pulling in opposite directions, but I’d like to think we still share some of those values.
I agree. It would be great. I just don’t see a respect for human life as being one of them. But we’ll save that one for another day.
All in all, I believe my position is closer to Mred’s.
I don’t wish to impose my view on any woman, but likewise she should not expect me to bear some of the financial burden through my taxes, and consequently adversely affect an already over-extended healthcare system.
Yes, well that’s certainly the other side of it. It’s like adding insult to injury for pro-lifers.
But anyway, thanks for these thoughts, Gabby. As you know I always value your contributions. They are thought-provoking and informative.
For some reason your last comment got stuck in the spam filter too, and I cannot figure out why. It makes no sense. Maybe some quirk in the program.
Oh well. Time to call it a day anyway.
Ben Stein was on the Situation Room, discussing his new book. Wolf tried to keep Ben from finishing his stmts but failed. Last question from Wolf, What do you blame the decline of America on, answer, taking God out of the schools, public life, etc.
Basically lack of moral standads.
I was on the pro-choice side of the fence until my mid 30′s when I got married and my wife and I began discussing children…
Once you’re in the delivery room and you witness birth from the “right there in front of you” perspective many things in your way of thinking about life and mortality click into different perspectives.
I would suspect the vast majority of pro-choice people would have a similar revolation from the experience….I can’t imagine someone not. Speaking from experience I can say you’re an emotional basket case for weeks afterwards.
The emotional damage caused in long term verses the short term thinking involved in the abortion debate is where most debates and perspectives break down… I’m fortunate that I didn’t have to experience this myself, but I do have friends that opted to abort unexpected pregnancy’s… while some outwardly appeared “okay with it” their personalities definately changed or were altered from the experience… I think for many people the “I’m okay with it” approach is okay until you experience it first hand… I’d suggest as an observer the emotional baggage and scars last a life time from watching these women years later in there relationships and the decisions they have made for themselves.
sorry to “soap box” on this blog…
I did comment on other blogs already regarding the disOrder of Canada and the reasoning behind the Dr M selection…basically their criteria for selecting him after rejecting him on 2 previous attempts would suggest Clifford Olson, Paul Burnardo, Carla Holmoca, and Willy Pickton should all be up for the same award…heck, even Ben Johnson deserves one… they all definately had an influance on the future of Canadians and altered the way society exists today and I’m sure there are a number of others like the Walkerton deal, Quebec Politech women shootings decades back, Caladonia Native leaders, the creator of Corner Gas, what’s his name from the BareNaked Ladies, and doesn’t David Suzuki have one yet…Dion stole his ideas in his former roll as enviroment minister when he couldn’t come up with an original thought and David didn’t sue…he should get one right??? Hell… If Morgintaler gets one for his influance on Canadian society, then Don Cherry, Mr Dress Up, and even Peter Puck diserve the Order of Canada…
Remember, Just because you don’t believe in something doesn’t make it cease to exist… no one believed in the atom and then some “Einstein” split one…now look where we’re at…
Basically lack of moral standads.
How interesting, Mary T. I wonder if there’s anything online about that.
…I think for many people the “I’m okay with it” approach is okay until you experience it first hand… I’d suggest as an observer the emotional baggage and scars last a life time from watching these women years later in there relationships and the decisions they have made for themselves…
Mred, thanks for your very insightful comment and for telling us about your personal growth in perspective. Maybe Gabby has something there after all about youth not seeing the long-term problems and therefore supporting abortion much easier than people who have matured a bit in their experience and moral development.
In my church, which is Catholic, there is always a section in the bulletin offering help to women who have suffered as a result of having undergone an abortion. I would imagine that they would stop advertising this service if there weren’t any takers.
Oh, and you can add Omar Khadr to your list for the Order of Canada!
[...] Morgentaler – Brave Fetal Menace Fighter One last post about the Morgentaler OC award, and then I promise you I’ll move [...]
Moebius, that’s true. However, here is an explanation by one of the people who returned it.
Read it. Disagree with them, They didn’t earn it ,so it’s easy for them to make a political statement,