Blue Like You

Oh Joanne - you have HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD with this one! And he is taking his message to the Calgary Stampede - Now that should be a show! Maybe PAPA Dion will find out what the kids really think of him.

I’m wondering how many security guards will be on detail for Dion’s trip to Stampede??? I’m thinking cream pie sales will skyrocket!

Now there really will be a “lotta BULL at the Stampede”.

While Dion may be at Stampede…. it will be a “Liberal” event. Meaning in order to go, you’d have to buy tickets and thus financially support the Liberal party. Dion doesn’t have the balls to go to an open-to-the-public event in Calgary while trying to sell NEP2 as good medicine.

Thanks for that reid…looking forward to MSM coverage of that event…the Headlines:
“Large Cheering Crowd Warms to Dion’s Shift”

“Stampeders Run to Dion”

“Albertans Give Dion the Thumbs up”

Once Dion spells out how BCs tax on gas and Quebecs tax on industry are to be ‘harmonized’ with the greenshaft,
Alberta can take that formula, top it up to match the combined prov & fed amounts, and keep any green tax in Alberta.

IMO, cleaning up the oilsands IS Alberta’s problem alone. If the US (our buyers) want oil that is equal to ghg levels of conventional oil, we HAVE to produce it.
Costs and returns stay in the province.

Just like making a car buyers want, is an Ontario problem, and Ontario’s alone.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/25/AR2008062501946.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

give this a read…

Tori, thanks for that. The ending is particularly interesting:

…The economists didn’t conclude that the world should ignore the effects of climate change. They pointed out that a better response than cutting emissions would be to dramatically increase research and development on low-carbon energy — such as solar panels and second-generation biofuels.

A low-carbon energy, high-income future is possible. Unfortunately, the political battles we just witnessed in Washington have done nothing to make it a reality.

No kidding. I was just listening to something this morning about hybrids using solar panels on the roof. What a great idea!

Greg:

McGuinty is smarter than you’re giving him credit for. He’s singing a new song re the Carbon tax is because with Dion’s Green Shaft, Ontario actually makes $billions. The demographics of GHG emissions per capita vs. tax breaks (total pop) results in Alberta and Saskatchewan paying more money than getting back, and BC, QC, and ON getting back more money than paying. So while Ontario will higher costs to industry, the economy will see a net influx of cash from the evil oil producing provinces.

“Dion’s reception is exclusively for Laurier Club members (people who donate the max allowable to the Liberal Party) and thus not open to the public. The breakfast is technically open to the public, but since you have to pay to get in (when there’s free pancakes to be had all over town) the only people who will be going will be Liberal supporters.”

How much can you charge for breakfast. Seeing as it’s a Liberal event, I guess the sky’s the limit.

I kinda like Joannes line..

Here’s an idea for a t-shirt…or a campaign sign.

On the front,

Dion wants to save the world from global warming,
by punishing canadians, while china builds 500 more coal plants…

On the back,

Carbon Tax…just another stupid greedy tax grab.
Save the world my ass….!

On another topic, the main Liberal beanfest at Stampede is the Hays Breakfast, which is on the first Sunday (July 6 this year). It is held by Liberal Senator Dan Hays, and all the movers and and shakers in Calgary are invited, along with the top federal Liberals. This being Calgary, lots of Tories get to go as well, and PMSH usually shows up too. There is generally some coverage in the media of the event, and a few bloggers as well.

I had to laugh at Joe’s description of the silent treatment, but it’s not just in Calgary. I remember some years ago being out for dinner at the Edmonton Colisseum just before a hockey game, and this was just after Wayne Gretsky got traded to LA, much to Edmontonians displeasure. Peter Pocklington, the Oilers owner walked in with his wife, and the entire restaurant of about 80 -100 people went completely silent and just stared at them as they walked to their table. It was quite something.

jad:

Dan Hays passed away last year, some time in June I believe. That breakfast is hosted in his honour now. But you are indeed correct, it’s the place to be seen if you’re anyone in Canadian Politics.

Sorry Reid. I’m not the greatest at providing links. Though I am getting better at it because of Gayle:0)

The T-Shirts should read : We’ll Never Forget NEP and a picture of Trudeau’s one finger salute to the West.

MaryT and Reid.. same in my house. Recently came “home” from 18 years in the centre of the universe. Brought my T.O. born and bred hubby with me. We’ve only been here 18 months, and he calls himself a proud Albertan and routinely blasts socialist Torontians. He laughed his ass off at the thought of Dion at Stampede.. yeah, he’s really going to talk to ‘da peoples’. He may appear at a liberal event, but I strongly doubt he will ‘do stampede’.

Let’s face it, Dion knows he isn’t going to get AB votes no matter what he does, so why bother trying. Better to buy votes where you can and if that screws those that don’t vote for you.. so much the better.

Personally, I agree with Barbara. I think its CRIMINAL when politicans pit one region against the other for the sake of votes. It’s disgusting. Our leaders should be standing up for what’s right for Canadians, not priming hatred of one to another. We are only strong when we stand together and work as a family, instead of the regions being like children fighting among themselves. In that case a PARENT would try and stop the infighting, not egg it on. Unfortunately, it seems Liberal leaders have only ever cared about what’s good for Quebec and to hell with the rest of the country

Hey… may be some should think about a HRC complaint!

“Never been to Alberta, but that is on my to-do list”"

All I know is that once people live here, they have a whole different view of Canada; Canadian politics; and why Alberta is so successful.

You definitely have to visit Joanne - and if Dion’s PLAN comes into effect; you might want to move out here because I am sure a movement will be afoot to separate. I would imagine Gayle will be moving out of province if that happens.

There is no chance Alberta will separate. I am not worried.

Gayle - just wondering why you say there’s no chance Alberta will separate. What do you base your opinion on? I’m in the West (Manitoba) and there’s always been grumbling about separation, but recently there’s alot more people talking about it.

“Ralph Klein told Albertans the same thing in the early ’90’s, right before he laid off a huge portion of the public service employees - most of whom lived right here in Edmonton, cut back on health care, schools, mental health facilities, children’s services and welfare”

Interestingly Gayle, we had a discussion with a few people who lost their jobs in 1992 - they said it was the best thing that happened to them - they have become far more successful in the private sector. One of the reasons Ralph did that Gayle, was because the bureaucrats in that field were known to make one days work last the entire week. Ralph did it because the private sector could do the work more cheaply and more efficiently plus they did not go on strike or make demands for higher and higher wages.

“You mean, doing something that seems, on first blush, to hurt people and the economy can actually turn out to be the right thing to do because it forces people to do things in a different way - forces them to come up with alternatives?”

but I don’t think that’s what dion’s plan is about.

dion’s plan is not about forcing people to do things in a different way- as there are no alternatives to using fossil fuels at this time. His plan is to tax the heck out of people who use fossil fuels.

And even if they are able to reduce (although you said previously that people may not be able to implement ways to reduce as they are too expensive), they will still be reliant on fossil fuels.

One could also make the point with the rather paltry amounts Dion is giving toward R&D, that he would rather make money off people who use fossil fuels than to try to spend money to find *real* alternatives.

“but I don’t think that’s what dion’s plan is about.”

I know that is what you think, but that is not what he says, and having read the plan I actually agree with him on this one.

“And even if they are able to reduce (although you said previously that people may not be able to implement ways to reduce as they are too expensive)…”

No, my point was that for some people they may be too expensive now, which is why Dion proposes tax credits to ease the burden.

AG - that link has nothing to do with what I said. I did not need Dion to tell me Alberta and Saskatchewan will be hit the hardest - that seems patently obvious, and his saying so is only because he happens to be honest.

Why do you think that means the plan will not result in people making better choices? I think the Klein example is a perfect example of how this type of plan has worked in the past.

“I know that is what you think, but that is not what he says, and having read the plan I actually agree with him on this one.”

If you’ve read the plan, and noticed the lack of reductions in emission targets, plus the tiny amount put aside for R&D, I find it difficult to come to the same conclusion as you.

btw, have you read any of the lomborg links yet? Don’t give me “does he sppecifically talk about the plan” excuse- because he explains quite well why kyoto/carbon tax will not work.

“Why do you think that means the plan will not result in people making better choices? I think the Klein example is a perfect example of how this type of plan has worked in the past.”

first, in order to have a choice, one must have more than one option. As I have said before, reduction still requires dependence on fossil fuels, so there is no real choice here.

“You mean, doing something that seems, on first blush, to hurt people and the economy can actually turn out to be the right thing to do because it forces people to do things in a different way - forces them to come up with alternatives?

I am glad to see you agree with Dion. That is, of course, what the green shift is all about.”

The reason that many lost their jobs and went on to better things is because of the expansion of the oil indutry in Alberta. Private sector business has flourished under the tarsands.

An increased provincial population has created a need for more health care workers, teachers, tradespeople, etc. Klein cutting back was no different than any successful business, get rid of the waste. Just because they are government jobs does not mean the taxpayer should not get value for money.

In fact, I know several people who lost their jobs here in Ontario who have gone to Alberta and secured well paying jobs. But better yet, imagine the plight the Canadian economy would be in right now without Alberta contributing the way it is.

And here is another question for Dion. He is going to take Billions from the oil sector in Alberta, Saskatchewan, and I would assume Newfoundland, even though for some reason no Liberal ever refers to “Big Oil” from that province. He then goes on to say that they will not pass along the increased costs of production via the tax. Which in fact means less profit for those companies.

So Stephane, how much less revenue will the federal government see in business taxes due to decreased taxes from lower profits (not to mention a decrease in oil production) under your green shaft, err, shift plan?

“btw, have you read any of the lomborg links yet? Don’t give me “does he sppecifically talk about the plan” excuse- because he explains quite well why kyoto/carbon tax will not work.”

This is becoming tiresome. I have said I will look at both sides of the issue - and I will, on my time. You may have noticed that we do not actually have to make a decision on whether or not to support this plan until the fall at the earliest.

In the meantime, I expect you, too, will be looking at both sides of this issue. I ask, because it seems to me that you decided, simply on the basis of this one person, that the plan will not work. I am wondering if you are going to be open to reviewing what other people say.

“Klein’s government introduced legislation that required the government to balance its budget by 1996-97. To accomplish this, the Tories implemented severe expenditure cuts, government downsizing, and the privatization of some services. A series of severe expenditure cuts was met with little resistance from a population intent upon seeing its financial house put in order. At the same time, the government expanded government-run gambling, which proved to be a windfall. The cost cutting and the revenue generation succeeded, and thereafter the Tories recorded a series of budgetary surpluses. Their success had a wide influence on other provincial governments, which began to duplicate Alberta’s cost-saving measures.

Klein’s government was elected to a second term on 11 March 1997, largely on the strength of the government’s financial record and the premier’s personal popularity. The government then slowed its debt reduction and began to reinvest in programs such as health and education.

The period between 1997 and 2001 saw the Alberta government’s coffers bolstered by higher oil and gas royalties. Klein pointed to these surpluses as proof that his government’s economic agenda of low taxes and minimal government - often termed the “Alberta advantage” - was working. The government continued pursuing deregulation and privatization, while lowering taxes still further. Chief examples of these were the deregulation of electricity throughout the province, the efforts to incorporate private clinics and hospitals into the health-care system, and the adoption in 2001 of a single-rate tax system for all Albertans.”

So he made deep cuts to balance the budget, something Paul Martin gets praise for. And part of the reson those cuts were as deep as they were is because Paul Martin slashed health care funding to the provinces. So what was Klein supposed to do to make up that shortfall? He made the cuts he had to, allowed the tarsands to expand, and then began to add funding to the areas he cut.

Hellooo! Those admonishing the complete adoption without question of Stephane Dion’s and his acolytes’ plan seem to forget: Canada’s GHG emissions are ONLY between 2 & 3% of global emissions.
That is NOT a cataclysmic effect Canada is supposedly having on the planet, as eco-wackos et al. blare we are having.

Isn’t it about time Canada and Canadians realized that? Let’s face it, we are not as important as some would have us be.
Now, China, India, and the US … those are horses of a different colour …

People like gayle forget that one of the reasons Kleing had to make such deep cuts is because the federal minister of health cut off all health care fund to Alberta because we did not have free abortion clinics. That money had to be made up somehow.
So add that to the devastation of the NEP and we still come out ahead, after year of struggle. Every time the liberals try to strangle AB, it hurts for a while but we still win. Liberals can’t handle that we don’t go crying to them for help.
For the good of Canada, AB and SASK should separate, and take all their ghg and money with them. Think of the reduction dion could claim he was responsible for.

maryt,

please know that not all ontarians are interested in fleecing AB…

“I am not sure why you suggest I made my mind up already - nothing I have said would suggest that.”

I can quote you…do you need me to?

and just so you know where i got it from…’cause I know how much you like context…

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=20358187&postID=3197236576662884765

I’m curious if the “:)” means that you were not really swayed by Grumpy’s objections…

I will give you credit that you wanted to wait until the plan came out, tho

Now you are stretching things Tori. There is nothing in that statement that precludes my stated intention of doing my own research - which is what I have said several times SINCE I wrote that post.

In fact, I wrote that post before the plan was released. It was simply a comment on the leaked portions.

not stretching things at all, gayle.

if it was a comment on the leaked plan, from what i’ve read, the leaked info was bang on in terms of what the plan was about.

Unless you’ve changed your initial assessement of “I like it”…?

Read my response at DBT’s. Your obsession is tiresome, and there are more important things in life than trying to deal with your silly dissecting of comments in your vain and foolish attempt to argue I mean something that I don’t.

If you cannot believe that I want to research the plan and the experts, that is your right. I am well past caring. Whatever gets you up in the morning…

Tori - you spend what, hours? perusing political bloggers desperately seeking some comment of mine that you can take out of context to support your argument that I have made up my mind.

You don’t think that is pathetic? Because I certainly do.

An adult would have conceded by now. If you really think that I have been lying for the past two weeks, there is no point in any further discussion, particularly when your “proof” is as weak as that.

If the best you can do is fabricate lies about my “true” position, then you really do not have a lot.

Again, I suggest you get over your obsession with me and get on with your life.

Me, amongst other things, I plan to take the summer to read up on this plan, research what the experts say, and make a decision based on that. If you want to spend yours trolling the internet in your desperate quest to “discredit” me, I suggest you invest a bit more time, because to date you have not done very well.

Here is a hint, start with the concept of “context”. It is your weakest area.

moebius,

gayle has proven her point well- when you have no debating ground to stand on, she resorts to attacking the messenger…

and gayle gives me way too much credit. I don’t actually “troll” other blogs to find things to discredit her with. I actually read liblogs to get their take on events- because everything usually has more than one side.

Fortunately, or unfortunately, I do have a fairly good memory for things that’s I’ve read, and where I’ve read them- makes for easy sourcing, I guess

I happened to remember Gayle’s comment about how she liked the plan, of what she had read.

Of course, when I asked her if her mind had changed to ambiguity since the leak of the plan to the actual plan, she chose to ignore that question and go straight to attacking the messenger…

quelle surprise

Cool.

“The standard LPC ad hominem attacks really make your points well.”

Gee mobius - coming from you that is so, I don’t know, meaningful…

well gayle, seeing as the leaked details and the confirmed details were one in the same, it could follow that your mind had not changed, as the content had not.

Since you said you “liked it” to the leaked details, with the confirmed details being exactly the same, please tell me how your mind has changed.

Honestly.

I’m not saying this to muck up a storm, I’m trying to understand how in one blush, you claim to like the plan, but now you are saying you have to read and think about it.

Were there extra details in the plan that came out that are troublesome for you? And if so what parts?

I’ve asked you this a few times- to just give me one thing that you do not like/find troublsome about the plan.

You have still not answered this question, yet you do go on attacking me.

To me, that says you have no criticisms of the plan, or parts you find troubling. Perhaps your initial “I like it” has not changed at all? Perhaps you’re just upset that I called you on it?

Like I said before, no skin off my back if you are only interested in finding “experts” that say this plan rawks. But don’t come here as if you have not made up your mind when words from your very keyboard suggest otherwise.

“decreasing” them for good…

Mobius - you would look at it that way, but I never said you have to agree with the liberals. What I said was this issue is important to the future of this country and the world, and if you make your decision on party lines, whatever party that may be, then you are not putting your country first.

i am not sure why that is so hard to understand…

Whoa - a little sensitive there Tori? When did I accuse you of not caring about the country? Last I heard, you claimed to make your decision based on your research (all of which took place before the plan was released and resulted in an opinion that is set in stone, but I digress…).

I was accusing people who decided they did not like the plan, solely based on their opinion of Dion. According to you, that is not what you have done, so relax.

And I understand it is impossible for you to acknowledge the context and true meaning of that quote of mine, because to do so would be to admit you have been wrong about this issue that it has consumed you so for the past week, but the fact is it is merely an expression of hope.

Nor have I ever made any secret about the fact I think Harper is bad, and dangerous, for this country, so thus it is no secret I want him defeated. I certainly do want the plan to work, and be a success, for the reasons I set out in that quote - if it works as planned it would be good for the country and the environment.

“The fact that you had to resort to that shows just how empty you are as a person.”

What were you saying about personal attacks again? Oh yeah…

Hypocrite.

Mary - I am really not interested in what you think I feel, or what you think I should do.

Let me put it this way, if I posted a bunch of lies about you, and you replied to counter them, would it be fair for me to chastize you for daring to respond in order to defend yourself against outrageous accusations?

So do be a dear and stay out of this.

Thanks.

snort

I would love for gayle to point out where I have lied about anything she has said.

In fact I quote word for word, and post links to where she has said it.

And yes, gayle, I’m damn right going to defend myself when someone suggests that I don’t care about my country.

And if that means I have to retaliate and call you out on your BS, so be it.

Context:

1 : the parts of a discourse that surround a word or passage and can throw light on its meaning
2 : the interrelated conditions in which something exists or occurs

So, you know, when you take a quote OUT OF ITS CONTEXT, you change the meaning. When you continue to insist on doing so, even when the context is explained, you are lying.

It is not that hard.

So ladies.

Happy Canada Day!