This is a fascinating discussion, and I’m going to try to pick it up again soon, because this post will be disappearing into the archives.

I love this kind of debate though – civil and informative. Thanks to everyone here.

Hejhog, I can’t (and don’t) argue unions don’t serve a purpose at one point in history. If you read what I’ve said, I was clear that management plays a heavy role in the problems with the Big Three face.

The unions could serve good purpose still but that’s not what they’re doing. Unions have become an industry unto themselves and the goal of that industry is to change society to their vision. If they wanted to run as politicians with their ideas, I wouldn’t object but they prefer to remain behind the scenes to escape public scrutiny.

When was the last time you heard someone ask for union leaders to provide a costed budget for their demands? It doesn’t happen but that’s a frequent call for opposition parties who make grandiose promises for the taxpayer’s dollars.

When was the last time someone provided a cost/benefit analysis of corporate welfare the governments have been providing for the Big Three? It doesn’t happen because the politicians know it would cost them votes.

I would argue it’s not the “good job” status which people wish to maintain. After all, the Asian manufacturers are providing wages which are close to the same as the Big Three. People fear change and losing major manufacturing jobs counts as change. As long as politicians continue to bail out the Big Three, there’s no incentive for them to change their management practices and there’s no reason for the unions to back down a single inch.

My point is, that if it were not for the “good job” status of the car manufacturing jobs, we would not care about them. It is the fact of the loss of good paying jobs that is the crisis, for lack of a better word to end this sentence. I don’t understand the argument that the jobs are too “good” (too well paying etc.) because if they weren’t good jobs for the past few generations, then let them go extinct. But why can’t we have good manufacturing jobs anymore??

If one is to address this issue, I don’t think blaming the unions or crappy manaagement, while not insignificant factors, ought to be the main focus. If I’m wrong, then I’ll state it this way: Perhaps we could also think about the issue from another angle.

Do we think that manufacturing workers ought to earn a compensation package that allows them to attain a certain lifestyle which includes some of the stuff in my earlier post? How much should autoworkers make? It is easy to say they make too much. Well, how much should they make? [These are rhetorical questions] Then, once you’ve established that, can the auto manufacturers compete paying those wages you think are fair? What if the answer is no? That we cannot compete, ie our canadian manufacturers cannot be competitive with, or be AS profitable as the Asian manufacturers. Ever. Then what?

I don’t know the answers. But sometimes I think the blame game between union/management/government handout just provides cover over other significant questions.

BTW, I’d love that link to Hargrove’s manifesto. Thanks.

The auto sector isn’t doomed, Jo, the unions are and, unless the Big Three can break free from the unions, they’re doomed as well… but the Big Three are only part of the auto sector. Like I said, the Asian manufacturers are building plants here as quickly as the Big Three are closing them.

The Asian manufacturers aren’t unionized, despite the best/worst efforts of the UAW & CUAW, but their wages aren’t remarkably lower than their Big Three counterparts. The big difference is worker productivity.

There was a time when unions served the purpose of protecting workers. Unions nowadays justify their existence by pushing up wages, reducing workload and securing more benefits. How long can that go on before the companies go bankrupt… especially when the Big Three’s management structure is so screwed up?

Hejhog asks what the point is of trying to keep the auto mfr’s here if they only have lower wages, but my response to that would be that it would help the spin-off industries stick around.

Eventually, the only auto-related industries left in Canada will be the non-unionized ones that service the Big Three in the States, as well as any Asian manufacturers.

That of course, is my own, very pessimistic opinion. The Big Three may survive in the States because the unions there seem a bit more flexible regarding wage negotiations, especially when it comes to new hires.

The Asian manufacturers are building plants here in North American as quickly as the Big Three are closing them. If the Big Three collapse, the gap will be filled almost seamlessly.